Friday, September 05, 2008

Two Questions For Na Nachs

(Picture courtesy of TLC Photography)

Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel commenting on Based On "A Childish Prank" - Na Nach Nachma:

I ask with complete temimus and without wanting to provoke anything untoward, but would one of the commentators from the Na Nach contingency please offer point-by-point answers to these questions:

1) In the Na Nach velt, is there a generally accepted halachic authority that people go to? If so, then who is it? If not, then who do Na Nachs go to with she'elos?

2) How does the Na Nach approach understand the Rebbe's well known statement (I believe it is found in Sichos ha-Ran) : "Do whatever you want with my teachings, just don't touch one word of the Shulchan Aruch!" ?

129 Comments:

At September 5, 2008 at 11:41:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

The greatest danger in any movement is subjectivity vis-a-vis the Torah. The whole point of our Mesorah and our Tzaddikim is to help us look at ourselves and our situations objectively and deal with them as HaShem would desire. No amount of sincere emotion will help unless it's properly channelled. That is why Rabbeinu stressed the centrality of the Shulchan Aruch and Torah study and not only Tefilla.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 12:06:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

Good point, but I want to know the Na Nach response --- Any na nachs out there who will answer?

 
At September 5, 2008 at 12:40:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

My understnding is that they're not based in the US. What would cause them to reply here?

 
At September 5, 2008 at 12:41:00 PM EDT, Blogger A Simple Jew said...

Bob: There are Na Nachs in the United States and they have been commenting on the posting linked to in this posting.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 1:05:00 PM EDT, Blogger A Simple Jew said...

To my Na Nach friends: Please do not consider A Simple Jew to be "an unfriendly site". I am attempting to create a sincere dialogue, not lambast you.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 1:13:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

Ditto here, simple Jew...-

I have about 4 or 5 friends that are die-hard Na Nachs, some of whom even had R' Odesser z"l live in their homes with them. They know I don't believe in the petek, but we are able to have an ongoing and friendly dialog.

Personally, I am intensely curious as to the worldview of Na Nach. Discussing whether the petek is "true" or not doesn't interest me anymore(if you ask me, "truth" is conceptually something else altogether...). I want to know what the exact beliefs of Na Nach are. The two above questions are very relevant to getting to the heart of things.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 1:20:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

If a group really was anarchic in its approach, how could one generalize from any small sampling of its answers?

 
At September 5, 2008 at 2:29:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Nanach, I posted this right away on the previous link, they should have moved here, maybe whoever's running this can move over the comment that was already made on this comment - do I have to bring the opposition on myself?

Dear R' Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel, R' Yisroel Salanter said that their are no general principles in Yahudus so it is not possible to make a generalization of what the Nanach do, I can only speak for myself and some of my friends, when we don't know what the halacha is we ask someone, usually the closest person, if they know, great, if not we ask someone else. It has also been my personal experience to be astounded by the halacha some of my friend know.
Please be aware that their is a letter from the Ramchal to the Gadol Hador of his time Mahari Bassan - who challenged the Arizals and Ramchals position that people should not be studying Gemura and Halacha, rather they should be devoting all their time to learning things that really connect them to G-d. The Mahari Bassan challenged this with the question how will they know halacha. The Ramchal replies that thank G-d there is in the Beis Medrash so and so who is proficient in halacha, and there is myself, whatever they don't know they simply have to ask us. The Ramchal proceeds to write a very strong language - "but Heaven Forbid they should waste their time learning those things more than the minimum", obviously you should see this inside, as well as his other letters.
Nanach are very particular to fullfill Rabbainu's will that we should study two halachos every day. In fact since unfortunately, because of the galus I'm in, I have relied on the Rambam as brought down in the Chok, today I hope to buy a Shulchan Aruch and strengthen myself in this area.
As far as your second question about not changing halacha. This is a very complex issue which I have dealt with in my Kuntrass Habiur on Nanach - Yahadus. Before I go further I will state clearly that Nanach are strictly adherent to halacha, however they are often strictly adherent to follow the example of Rabbaine who had no, and taught that noone should practice any stringencies whatsoever. This is also a very complex issue which deserves it's own space. Returning to the issue of not changing the halacha, I would like to present you with a challenge to explain to me a few cases which Rabbainu did otherwise. E.g. Rabbainu quoted the Shulchan Aruch's edict of the necessary kavona- intention- one must have when he says the name of G-d, Rabbainu remarked, what's wrong with the simple understanding - G-d - and Rabbainu said this with tremendous fear. This is one example of a few, which for good reasons I do not want to pontificate, that you see that Rabbainu did not say that everything in Shulchan Aruch is set in steel. Obviously, as chasidim have said since day one, we worship Hashem not the Shulchan Aruch. It is also known that chasidim have always paskened with the Arizal over the Shulchan Aruch, there is a teshuva from the Baal Hatanya about this (the first one in the book). So to make a long story short, Nanach definitely are adherent to Shulchan Aruch, however when Nanach have a very valid reason, usually based on direct mesora or precedent seen by our holy tzadikim the Nanach will follow that.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 2:37:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

There are some errors in your description of chassidic relationship to halacha and the arizal(in particular your citation the baal ha tanya's teshuva - even Lubavitch does't always pasken like the Ari Za"l) , but I think that you have nevertheless stated your position.

But what about the Rebbe stating "Do whatever you want with my teachings...?"

How does Na Nach explain their view of a "correct" masora in Breslov considering this statement by Rabbeinu Za"l?

 
At September 5, 2008 at 2:47:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Nanach!
Sfas accused (heavy word, sorry about that but there's no other way) my comment of being in wrong in some ways about how the chasidim pasken like the Arizal. This is an injustice, because I cleary wrote a source, a responsa written by the Baal Hatanya, who addresses this very issue, please be courtious to first look up this source before claiming that I'm wrong. What Lubavitch does B"H I don't know and maybe don't want to, obviously based on the principles given, if the Baal Shem Tov did something other than the Arizal, as is brought down in at least one verified story, Chasidim will stick with that. Also my quote about worshipping Hashem not the Shulchan Aruch is a very well known and established idiom of chasidus.
What Rabbainu told the 2 chasidim he heard learning his Tora, is what he told them. The insinuation of the story, which tells how Rabbainu smiled when he heard them etc., is that they did not have a very good understanding. Thus Rabbainu asserted they should never start up with halacha. This does not mean that in certain instances where precedent have been established that the halacha remains like the Shulchan Aruch and not like the Tzadikim. This is in itself a very big sugya discussed in countless of teshuvas when we pasken not like the Shulchan Aruch. Nanach believe that if someone saintly says to do something, and not Heaven forbid as an aberration, but because that is the halachic conclusion that he arrived at, we are to follow him.
Before I explain anything else, please explain to me the challenge I presented to you, beware that I have more examples.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 3:45:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

I’ll offer a response, but I still want an answer to the “Do whatever you want with my teachings…” part of the questions.


--- Re: the Ba’al ha Tanya - You are still not accurate. I know this teshuva & have been through it several times. Also, as a rov/posek for a chassidishe kehilla, I have witnessed the tremendous breadth of chassidishe minhagim. The Ari is not the final determinant of minhag /halachia in chassidus. The Ari is very, very influential, but not the final word. You are really oversimplifying things.

Regarding your “challenge” – it’s not a challenge. You are comparing apples and oranges.

The basic requirement for kavvana is stated in Brochos 34b – Ideally, one should have kavanna (meaning understanding the meaning of the words) for the entire shemona esrei. Yet, at minimum, one must understand the meaning of the words in the first brocha of Avos. The Mechaber in OC 101:1 paskens like the gemora – if one didn’t pay attention to the meaning of the words in Avos, then he must repeat the Amida. However, the Rama adds that we do not repeat it.

Now – if you look at all of the nosei kelim, Mishna Berura, etc the concensus and halacha is that one is required to have in mind the simple meaning of the words to be yotzei kavana. Now, in Sichos ha-Ran, a fellow came to the Rebbe and asked what “kavannos” he should have when saying the name of ha-Shem. The Rebbe’s respose was “Isn’t the simple meaning, G-d, enough for you?”

Understand- the Chassidic use of the term “kavvanos” referrs to the kabbalistic effects and intentions brought in the Ari z”l. This is what the fellow was asking the Rebbe about. Rabbeinu za”l, as you know, strongly discouraged people from having these intentions in mind when davening. If you need further proof as to what the rebbe was talking about, see also in Sichos ha-Ran where the rebbe discouraged people from davening with siddurim that contained “kavvanos” (referring explicitly to kabbalistic intentions).

Rather, the rebbe encouraged davening with the simple meaning of the words – just like the basic requirement of the Shulchan Aruch! He told this fellow just to use the simple meaning of the word: G-d – which is right in line with the halachic requirement of the Shulchan aruch.

Now - How does Na Nach explain the Rebbe’s statement: “Do whatever you want with my teachings…” – This statement seems to make it very difficult to label any one Breslov masora as being “correct” to the exclusion of all others. Please offer a response.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 3:53:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

for clarification - I know that you addressed the "Do what you want question..." But I want more details as to why you are discrediting this and how you interpreting the purpose of this maase.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 4:06:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

I want to know what the exact beliefs of Na Nach are.

The core quality of Nanachniks is anarchy. That's why they easily fall into "bashing" Breslover leaders, mashpiim and tzadikim. They perceive all of them as a threat to their "do what I want" and "be free, no one on top of me". This is basically what Nanach is all about, and this whole issue of petek is hardly relevant to anything at all. Anarchy is the real "petek" of the Nanach.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 4:11:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Do whatever you want with my teachings...?

Can one differ the exaggeration from the directive to be a chaotic wreck and do anything that comes to one's mind?

In other places Rebbe said that one should try to understand what he meant, i.e. what his intention was. One should be used already, that the Rebbe often said guzmooys, and if one builds a whole issue out of them it can turn in the wrong way.

 
At September 5, 2008 at 4:22:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

Bahaltener - send me an e-mail at sfasblog@gmail.com - I want to forward you something of interest.

- Avi Bloomenstiel

 
At September 5, 2008 at 6:48:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Sfas HaNachal, from your comments it looks like you are interested to some degree in the truth. Right now it's almost Shabbos so I can't write very much. It's true that I simplified matters, but there is a time and place for everything, and I didn't know how far you were looking. It is still not clear to me, even after your clarification what exactly is bothering you, you seemed to infer from the maaase that everyone was entitled to their own mesora and apparently Bahaltener inferred that it was a support to Nanach anarchy. In my opinion it isn't talking about mesora at all, I think Bob Millers first comment is much closer, maybe I'll elaborate after Shabos.
Also with regard to how the chasidim pasken, I still don't know how you a differring from me in a way that makes you more accurate than me.
Good Shabbos,
Good Nanach!
NNNNM!

 
At September 5, 2008 at 7:15:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

Naanaach -

I am interested in truth - I'm not coming into this discussion to bash or discredit you. I can't bash or discredit something if I don't really get it. By the same token, it is hard for me to accept it if I don't really get it.


I am a Breslover, but I am also trained to render decisions in Halacha and, to be frank, am much more comfortable telling someone whether or not their pot is kosher or treifed than making general judgement calls in hashkofa.

I still don't understand the worldview of Na Nach and I have questions. If I get good answers, then I'm happy. If I don't, I keep looking. If I get really, REALLLY REALLY good answers, then I start singing Na Nach Nama...etc.

As it stands now, I don't get good answers. What I see is that Na Nach holds itself as the superior derech in a way that alienates other Breslovers and insults people who have given much of their life and trust over to various zaddikim and manhigim (I for one was close to R' Michel Dorfman and R' Yaakov Meir Shechter and am insulted when Na Nachs tell me that I am in with the wrong crowd and that R' Michel za"l, was mefursam shel sheker and that R' Yaakov Meir is tzaddik sheker!). If R' Odesser, who I do believe was a Gaon and Tzaddik, had machlokes with other manhigim, then what right is it of ours, the chassidim, to get involved?

Didn't the rebbe tell us to stay out of "their" machlokeses? It also appears to me as though there are no halachic figures in Na Nach. Many of the Na Nach's I have asked about this have said that they don't emphasize "that derech ha-limud." So, while Na Nach derides halachic scholarship, they have to depend on non-Na Nachs for halachic guidance (that's a hashkofic quandry...).

I am also puzzled in that Na Nach pushed for a poshut simple reading of the ma'ases regarding Rabbeinu. However, they will go to great lengths and complex explainations to explain away those ma'asios that appear to contradict their hashkofos - this is a contradiction. Before I have made up my mind about Na Nach, I need to see answers to these questions.

I have had many late-night discussions with my Na Nach friends about these issues, but I still don't have a clear picture. Nevertheless, they will tell you that my approach is not passionate and confrontational - I have questions, now you offer answers. That's all I'm looking for.

Gut Shabbos!

 
At September 5, 2008 at 9:05:00 PM EDT, Blogger aoc gold said...

THE WIND

(Part I)

Who has seen the wind?

Neither I nor you;

But when the leaves hang trembling,

The wind is passing through.

(Part II)

Who has seen the wind?

Neither you nor I;
But when the trees bow down their heads,

The wind is passing by.

~by wow powerleveling

 
At September 6, 2008 at 3:50:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

I have nothing against non na nach people... some of my best friends are one of them. I will try my best to answer the above two questions. Na Nach is very difficult to pin down as a shita. My understanding of this fact is because Na Nach is a very messionic light that is coming into the world before the Jewish Messiah is revealed, and there is quite simply no real vessels in the world to receive the light of the Jewish Messiah. This explains why there is so much chaos around Na Nach even though it is not a shita of Na Nach to promote chaos, chus ve shulim, it is a little inevitable that there be chaos around it in the begining partly because it is new and partly because the whole idea of it sounds so crazy to the "normal" world that it is usually the crazy people that pick up on this messionic light before the rest of the world. As it says in the gemorah prophecy (true devekos) was given to children and crazy people as you can see both of these groups love Na Nach the most. Being only half crazy (though I am a tzadik thanks to Hashem's help and the Rebbe's help) it took me a little longer to pick up what this is all about and I had to suffer a great busha to admit that all these crazy kids actually had something very real going on. That all being said here is what I and my friends do.

1) In the Na Nach velt, is there a generally accepted halachic authority that people go to? If so, then who is it? If not, then who do Na Nachs go to with she'elos?

No, there is no generally accepted halachic authority that people go to. Myself and my friends have a real posek that we have that answers questions for us. Na Nach's I know live kosher lives though I have not noticed that there is any one heksher that is popular over another though there might be some that are avoided completely. I have never heard it said in Na Nach that one does not need a Posek. Most serious Na Nach's that I know all look charedi, maybe without a bekasher, and live Kosher lives al pi halacha. I have never noticed any difference between halachek observance between a Na Nach and any other Breslover. This is not a point a difference between Na Nach and other groups, so it is not discussed at length. Though I have heard it said many times critically that Na Nach's don't learn halacha or don't learn, personally I have not noticed any real difference, I don't think that Na Nachs learn any more or less then any other group. There are individuals that are great learners and there are people that learn less. Pretty much like any other group. I found that these stereotypes are false.

2) How does the Na Nach approach understand the Rebbe's well known statement (I believe it is found in Sichos ha-Ran) : "Do whatever you want with my teachings, just don't touch one word of the Shulchan Aruch!" ?

The way I understand this statement is that it is really really important to keep Halacha as a foundation to all Judaism. It is like the vessel to receive the light. So, my understanding of this is. do whatever you want... Means that one should not go off the derek by entertaining the thought that following the Rebbe's advice is more important then Halacha. But, in no way does it mean that the two shouldn't work in perfect accord, they should, but in order to receive the light of the Rebbe properly one must walk in the way of halacha and they they will understand that the two are really one. but without the halacha one can never properly receive the light of the Rebbe, each according to their own level.

 
At September 6, 2008 at 7:31:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Dear Bod Miller and readers,
It sounds a little like you are responding to one of my previous posts (the emotional one) so I feel a need to answer you. Sounds like you are saying "How emotional, but you still need halacha and Tora."

The only way to get an objective view of the world and of oneself is only through attachment to the Tzadik (LM II 67) who is the fifth element. Rabbi Shmuel Horowitz says that this means to love him and to be called by his name (in his kuntras "aidth Namana") Hence I am call Na Nach. It also means to read the books of the Tzadik, receive his daas (knowledge) and fullfill his advice (Eitos Hamevoros. R' Barski), though it is true, emotion is not enough, it is also true that without a sincere emotional desire for truth as the primary force, as the rebbe said many times "desire is the main thing" then all the learning and mitzvots that a person performs are worthless. Without an emotional desire the person is asleep spiritually and Hashem receives no pleasure from their service (LM I 60:6) For without a real emotional desire for being holy and true it is not possible to get any real Tora, Rather it is the Tora of the other side and it will lead only to death (I promise). Even if the person knows a lot and does many mitzvot, without screaming out to G-d from the very depths of one's heart (a lot) it is worthless torah. It sounded a little like you were belittling emotion. It is the main thing. For without it there is only death.

"Properly channeled" means attaching to the Tzadik. This is one one the big differences I have found between Na Nach and other forms of "Breslov".(Na Nach is primarily into Rebbe Nachman and all the other groups are into Rebbe Nachman and some other torah as this site has links to Chabad tora etc.) The Rebbe said that his books are ALL what we need to do tshuvah. Na Nach is a group based on Tora Learning (Primarily the books of Rebbe Nachman as he has said) and Halacha (which he has said) and Tefilla and also fullfilling the advice of the Rebbe. Rebbe Nachman really very much wanted to have his books printed, Na Nach has sold over 8 million copies. Far far far more then any other group and It still is selling far far more then any other group, if it isn't the only group that does. ( I should add. They sell them at printing cost price)

So lets review. Na Nach stresses emotion, music, and dancing in holiness. (Reb Nussun says to dance every day.) Rebbe Nachman says "Desire is the main thing". Na Nach is a Halachically Kosher group. stressing modesty and other Kosher living. Na Nach stresses learning Rebbe Nachman. Na Nach stresses prayer over learning (for it is possible to be a learned scholar and a completely evil person). The Rebbe said for example "The battle of Moshiac is primarily won through simple people receiteing Psalms" and isn't the final redemption more important then being smart in Gemorah and staying in exile? The Rebbe also says "Prayer is the primary weapon of Moshiac" Someone who stresses learning over prayer (prayer includes sceaming out to G-d from the bottom of your heart) is not really into this Redemption thing, i.e. wants to keep us in exile and is most likely a Jewish demon scholar. His learning is without desire for holiness without their heart being attached to Hashem. I hope you were not implying that emotion is nice thing to have but it is not the main thing for the Rebbe says "desire is the main thing" (obviously desire is in the heart and not in the intellect alone). I just wanted to make it clear to our readers what it is that Breslov teaches. I hope that your Rabbi doesn't stress learning over prayer, if so, I would reexamine his credentials.
When one, on the other hand is emotionally fired up for holiness, and then learns the books of Rebbe Nachman, then secrets open up for them (this is explained in LM) and this person merits to understand the truth of the words written in the book. I would like to add. It is Halachachly permissible for me to believe that Saba recieved a miraculous letter from heaven for Saba is a known Tzadik, and actually it is also a respectable thing for me to believe in for R' Moshe Feinstein thought it was "Nifla" (wonderous or miraculous) obviously he would not say that a "childish prank" was a wonderful thing. I know that you all don't want to discuss the Petek and all but while on the topic of halacha I thought that I would add that point. But on the other hand rejecting the story of the Miracle of the Petek does display sophistry and a lack of simple faith both scorned by Rebbe Nachman, even though these deniers of the Miracle of the Petek might be within the bounds of halacha, I would, as a Na Nach Breslover, never trust them for advice on any issues in my life that involve my soul or my Jewishness which is founded completely on faith and not any sophistry Chus Ve Shulim. I hope we are on the same page.zecyow

 
At September 6, 2008 at 8:08:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

To A Simple Jew,

You wrote:

To my Na Nach friends: Please do not consider A Simple Jew to be "an unfriendly site". I am attempting to create a sincere dialogue, not lambast you.

Though you may not have intended to lambast us, the plain truth is that you have, as I have made clear in my previous "emotional" entry (the one about the conversation with the child). As well as lambasting the credibility of the Holy Saba and of The Holy Rabbi Moshe Feinstein. This is made clear in your article. I'm not sure what you mean to say here, are you admitting that you made a mistake and were unaware of the facts? Are you saying that you really didn't mean to say all those things? That you were unaware of what you were saying? are you taking anything back? It was not a very "friendly" thing to say. No, I don't have any bad feelings about you. I have never met you. I'm here only to inform, not to argue or to foster bad feelings, if that is your concern. This is not a game of politics for me, it is a quest for truth, and to make further clarifications of my torah. On the other hand, If Na Nach is true it is better to find out now then later. If you are not sure then better not write these types of articles(i.e.The childish Prank). I consider these posts I am making part of my obligation as a Na Nach, and I think that It is of great benefit to your readers to read them. I consider it a favor that I am doing you. I did not consider it an unfriendly act on my part.

 
At September 6, 2008 at 8:12:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Dear sfas ha-nachal
It sounds like you live in Sfas, I live in Sfas. If you do live in Sfas and would like to meet in person to discuss these things, I would be delighted. My email is
yosephsaban1@gmail.com

 
At September 6, 2008 at 8:22:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

dear Bob Miller,
Anarchy is a description of the way Na Nach looks to us. It is not our Religion to be anarchists. Our Religion believes that Rebbe Nachman should dictate our lives, so that is one way that Na Nach is not anarchy.
Everything that Na Nach believes is summed up in the book "Israel Saba" which is a written recording of the tapes that Saba made. and in the book "Blossoms of the Spring" (Ebey Nachal) He says a lot of Rebbe Nachman Torah. The Na Nach shita is to hold by all that is written in these books and of course all the early books of Rebbe Nachman and Reb Nussun and other early stuff.

 
At September 6, 2008 at 10:05:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

concerning the sanity of Saba in his later years. Someone brought up this question earlier, I wish to address that issue now.
Short and sweet. Though Saba did many things that were very outrageous in his later years (for example one famous story of a wedding where they honored him with a bracha under the chupa where he held the sidur upside down an pretended not to know how to read) it is known that he did these things as a brilliant way to avoid being given honor. Rebbe Nachman speaks about the grave danger that one is in when they receive honor. Even though honor in itself is a good thing we are taught to flee from it. If a person still has a douht of this all one needs to do is view a video of him speaking or read his words and it is clearly evident that the man was not at all insane. In fact he was very sane. If, after reading his words and seeing him speak on video it is still not clear to you that he is completely sane then I would check out my own sanity if I were you. (a psychiatrist probably wouldn't help). Also I would check out my faith if I were you, If you think that someone who spends their entire life in complete service of G-d in the way of Rebbe Nachman only becomes insane in the end then what kind of G-d do you believe in? And ditto on R' Moshe Feinstein incase you were going to ask.

 
At September 6, 2008 at 10:16:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Once again my givald friend Saba Noon stole the show. Thanks for Shabos Kodesh I had time to get a little perspective and not errupt at what's going on.
People are asking how Nanach claim to have the correct mesora, well take a look at their comments, they refuse to reexamine citations (e.g. the teshuva from the baal hatanya) and misquote others (BH"Y I'll get to that). The way of the tzadikim was always to see the holy things inside, even if they knew them by heart letter for letter, Osiyos Machkeymos. This Shabbos I spent a lot of time and effort trying to find the Sichos Haran quoted by Sfas Hanachal, in the end after prayers and sgulas and much searching I found the piece in Chayay Moharan. It is possible that even still he know it by heart, verbatim, but judging from the way he misquotes it, I rule that out. This is why Nanach have the true Mesora, we do the homework, it is our life, our very breath hinges on the word of Rabbainu of the ways of Breslov, we take it seriously. The book Siach Sarfey Kodesh has a lot of it that was written while the authour was waiting at red lights, this says a great deal for the authors hasmada, but the Nanach are appalled by the lack of resposability in such an important venue of establishing the mesora of Breslov. There are already two entire books compiled of serious editing of Siach Sarfey Kodesh.
One who sees Chayay Moharan inside (to distance from analization 8, להתרחק מחקירות ח) will see that someone asked Rabbainu about what the Shulchan Uruch says about the necessary intentions when saying G-d's name. This was not a discussion about kabalistic meditations or anything of the sort. And even if one would somehow distort this piece and say that the Shulchan Uruch here is talking about Kabalistic intentions, this just compound the problem, this would show that one could, G-d forbid, take a ruling of the Shulchan Uruch claim it is talking about something unnecessary and not relevant, that is exactly what Rabbainu warned against. So here you see that not only was my challenge not met, it would have been safer if you would have stuck with Nanach!!!
The fact of the matter is that if one examines the Shulcha Uruch inside (O.C. 5) he will see that many of the commentators themselves say that this intention cited is not Meakev except in the first verse of Shma. There are Sidurim designed to help a person fulfill this ruling at all times, but if one doesn't he still fulfilled his obligation even according to the Shulchan Uruch, just not in the best way. According to R' Chaim Brisker even in the first paragraph of Shmone Esray, where intention is Miakev, it is only necessary to have intention that you are speaking to G-d! The Chazon Ish argues that any Jew saying the Shmone Esray, no matter where his mind is, has at some level the awareness that he is speaking to G-d! Rabbi Nachman says, that far more important than the detailed intentions cited by the Shulchan Uruch, is the simple precise reality - G-d! Rabbi Nachman ruled this, and the Nanach respect Rabbi Nachmans ruling. If lets say a differen Rabbi said it, we probably would not trust him to rule over the Shulchan Aruch, but it would depend on who, the Shach, Rema, and various tzadikim frequently ruled against the shulchan aruch, so if lets say the Saba would tell us that the halacha is a certain way, and if we would certain that the Shulchan Aruch says differently, Halacha permits, and actually necessitates that we follow the Saba!!!
However the real truth is with my friend Saba Noon, the reality is that the Nanach conform to Halacha probably no different that almost everyone else. There are a few issues such as the one I brought up, but hardly a matter strong enough to make claims and descriminate against them, G-d forbid.
The way of the Nanach is to try to do exactly what Rabbi Nachman said, entirely. No more no less.
If you are prepared to this, than join our ranks!
Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman

now what you wrote about complex explanation to maasiyos, I don't know what your refferring to.

what you wrote about Nanach providing their own halachic figures, it would do you good if you examined the letters of the Ramchal which I quoted previously, after we can discuss them.
Your question about staying out of the machlokes between tzadikim was also explicitly dealt with in our previous comments, Come On!
As for the two figure you mention, one of them doesn't go to Uman, and his main claim to fame is reading peoples forhead or palms, not very Breslov. The other I understand is responsible for keeping us from bringing Rabbainu to Eretz Yisroel!!!!!!!!!!!! Couldn't you pick someone better?

 
At September 6, 2008 at 11:00:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At September 6, 2008 at 11:17:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Just a note: Siach Sarfey Koydesh is not considered a reliable source even by talmidim of Reb Levi Ytzchok Bender themselves. It wasn't written by him, it wasn't even written from his words, it was wirtten in some around way from some one who heared some tapes etc.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 12:10:00 AM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

Reconsidering, I deleted my original comment because I realized that I was being drawn into the hotheaded, useless rhetoric that this discussion risks devolving into. Let me try this a second time -

Re: R' Odesser's sanity- I met him soon before his petira and found him to be absolutely sane, pleasant, inspirational, and a real pleasure to speak to. I have no doubt that he was sane and a Tzaddik.

Re: the rest of this discussion:

SabaNoon - You are being helpful.

NaaNaach - You are not being helpful. For one, you quote R' Bender as being a valid source while at the same time discrediting one who does not go to Uman every year. Please go look into the history of R' Bender's relationship to the Uman Kibbutz and the machlokes he had with R' Avraham.

I have learned the teshuva from the Ba'al ha-Tanya over and over. You are wrong in that you say this is the final hanhoga for all chassidim. It is not - the chassidishe world is WAY more diverse that at the time the teshuva was authored and many rebbe's and chassidim go directly against this maskona.

Re your "challenge" - I did give the wrong source - It is in Chayei Moharan 414 (the conclusion that you draw from this is unwarranted and harsh, though).

I asked this "kasha" once to one of the Manhigim (who you have already said that you don't recognize) and the response was a story from R' Ilya Chaim Rosen that this story had more to it and that the question was dealing with kabbalistic intentions more than the simple reading of the Shulchan aruch. Now, you probably don't accept that either- so, let's go with the pshat of the S.A.

Assuming that is what the ma'ase is discussion - I still don't understand why you say that this is a contradiction. Here is the story for those unfamiliar:

"One asked him regarding the subject mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch O.C. 5 on the intentnions to have in mind regarding reciting the name of HaShem. [The Rebbe] responded to him 'What is lacking for you in the simply word 'G-d?' By saying this with its simple meaning, one's hand, feet and all 248 limbs and 365 sinews will tremble!'"

The rebbe was criticizing the questioner's in abililty to recognize and feel the import of the name even in the Yiddish "G-tt," I.e "Why are you not able to say G-D, and have that understanding?" is what the rebbe was apparently asking. There is NO HALACHIC IMPORT WHATSOEVER IN THIS MAASEH.

See LM II:120 where the rebbe is more explicit in his halachic interpretations of kavana in tefillo and you will see that this is not a stira on the shulchan Aruch. If you still think that it is a contradiction, then please explain why?

 
At September 7, 2008 at 12:17:00 AM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

An afterthought, NaaNaach -

Do you say Chatzos everynight?

Spend 1 hour every night in the fields doing hisbodedus?

Finish kol torah kula every year?

If the answer is "yes" to all of these then I will accept that you are following the rebbe in complete simplicity. If you want to know what I do, send me an e-mail and I will respond off the board:

acbloomenstiel@cavtel.net

- R' AC Bloomenstiel

 
At September 7, 2008 at 12:47:00 AM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

I have started a productive e-mail conversation with Saba-Noon about this topic, so I will be migrating off of this forum and will continue things with him via e-mail.

- ACB

 
At September 7, 2008 at 2:38:00 AM EDT, Blogger Avi said...

I have started a productive e-mail conversation with Saba-Noon about this topic, so I will be migrating off of this forum and will continue things with him via e-mail.

But what about the rest of us who want to read what you both have to say. I also (am a Breslover with Na Nach friends and I) have questions about Na Nach and want to read these discussions.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 5:56:00 AM EDT, Anonymous ben zeev said...

I have a question for Nanachs: What is your opinion of the Lubavicher Rebbe having hinted to himself as being Mashiach?

Trust me, I'm not just making letzanus, although I can't say I'm being completely serious here (you can't help but laugh at this one, but sometimes schok is a vehicle for great holiness - "az yimale schok pinu")

And if you tell me that R' Nachmal is the GREATEST tzaddik ever and Mashiach has got to come from him, well, I'll tell you that Chabad mesora implies the same thing about the Lubavicher Rebbe, and he also did miracles, healed people, saved souls, etc., and he said about the previous rebbe that he's a nassi hador, and implied about himself as being Mashiach, so how is one to know who is right???

So I say... May be they're both right... Who said there's only one Mashiach, we've got Mashiach Ben David, and Mashiach Ben Yosef...

And I'll tell you more, isn't there a Medrash on "ze yinachamenu" that brings two opinions on what should be Mashiach's name, one sais Menachem and one sais Nachman. Hmmm....

Dear Nanachs, may be you should join forces with Chabad Meshichistim... I think it will only make you both stronger, as well as balance you both out a bit... It sais that for geula to come, the two Mashiachs have to come together... What do you say?

 
At September 7, 2008 at 10:19:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Sfas Hanachal,
You impressed me by taking back your words and revising them, in between I had composed a reply, you got out of most of the problems!
This was my original reply:
The way of Breslov was never to give other people advise, except to tell them to do exactly what Rabbainu says. Rabbainu didn't tell people to learn Shulchan Uruch all day with the Tur, Rabbainu said they should do hisbodudus all day, and if they were unable to do that they should learn Tora. Saba said that Tora should be Rabbainus, he said people should learn Rabbainus Tora most of the day, this is one of the main things that helped me understand that the Saba had the true way. Because I come from a family of Rosh Yeshivas and the like and I was heading G-d forbid in that direction, slowly I started to realize incongruities and then when I started to learn the Ramchal, which you are obstinate not to look at, I discovered that the True Tzadikim like the Arizal and Ramchal did not advocate the way of the Yeshiva, on the contrary their view is quite different. Their 'opinion' is that a person should primarily devote himself to the study of the sections of the Tora which directly connect him to G-d. They warn against the study of the Talmud (which by the way isn't so radical, after all the Rambam's view is that one need not learn the Talmud. Agav, the Rambam writes (end of the 4th chapter of Yisoday Hatora) that one who knows day to day halacha – to the extent that every woman and child should – he is allowed to involve himself with the Pardess. The Rambam paskens that women are not allowed to study the Talmud, thus according to the Rambam one who knows basic halachos can involve himself with Kabala). The Ramchal writes explicitly that if one considers himself to be as smart and capable as the Arizal he should learn no more than 2 hours a day of Gemura or Halacha, for all others they should abstain completely. So should I follow your advice, or the advice of the Arizal, Ramchal, Rabbi Nachman, and Saba?!!!
Are you starting to figure out why the Nanach are so particular about who we are willing to listen to and follow?!
Sorry for being so hard on you, but the Truth is that way, so BH”Y your going to have to start facing it eventually.
this, till here was my original reply.
It seems, maybe in the merit of your new correspondance with Saba Noon that you have already came around to to a stance that I can not attack. You have taken back your advice of following a way not deliniated by Rabbainu, instead you have recommended that I do Rabbainu's way! Now you're talking.
About my personal avoda, I don't like discussing so much with other people. You should know that I do put my personal avoda somewhat second place to the hafatza I'm very active in B"H. This is something that I learned from Saba, that hafatza is more important than chatzos. There are some precedents discussed about this, maybe it's in Siach Sarfey Kodesh, how R' Nussun would speak with new people till very late at night, but there it says only R' Nussun because he was secure in his blessing from Rabbainu that he could sleep when ever he decided.
In any case what I do or do not aside, I agree that what everyone including myself should be doing chatzos and hisbodudus and everything Rabbainu says.
About the Shulchan Aruch siman 5, which says the intention one should have when saying G-d's names, I do not believe it is talking Kabalisticly, I could hear that there was more to the story than was published in Chayay Moharan, however the clear message of what was published, and the people who published it knew very well what they were doing to say the least, is that Rabbainu said that one should not focus on keeping what the Shulchan Aruch says there, rather he should concentrate on the absolute realization of G-d. You haven't made yourself clear why you don't agree with me on this point.

Great blessings of Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman!

 
At September 7, 2008 at 10:23:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

bahaltener,
about siach sarfey kodesh, I think I'm in basic agreement with you on this one. (by the way, there is alot of stuff in the Nekudos Tovos edition of Chayay Moharan with Hashmatos, check it out). Do you know about the two books of corrections?

 
At September 7, 2008 at 10:27:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Bob Miller,
What you wrote about the Nanach being based in Eretz Yisroel, that's 100% right. Rabbainu said my place is only Eretz Yisroel! Rabbainu said in order to be a Jew, that is to constantly arise higher and higher, this is only possible in Eretz Yisroel!
Originaly the Nanach didn't even want to transalate Rabbainu into English or leave Eretz Yisroel at all. As the galus lengthened, and especially after the evil rabbis prevented us from bringing Rabbainu to Eretz Yisroel, the Nanach have arisen to meet the new demands of helping the imprisoned Jews of the exile.
NNNNM!

 
At September 7, 2008 at 10:28:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Anyone who wants to know more about nanach should visit their site it's nanach.net. you can ask whatever you want in the comments there, and there are plenty of archived material and links.
NNNNM!

 
At September 7, 2008 at 12:02:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

The other I understand is responsible for keeping us from bringing Rabbainu to Eretz Yisroel!!!!!!!!!!!!

The one who keeps you from this is the Rebbe himslef, who explicitly stated that he wanted to be buried in Uman. Period.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 6:22:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rebbe Nachman's Neshama, like all others, are not bound to a place and is certainly in Eretz Yisrael.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 7:26:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

Not even the greatest Tzaddik ever intended his own words to be a complete, all-inclusive description of Yiddishkeit! Every link in the Mesorah chain (and that includes non-Breslovers and non-Chassidim, too!) has value in its own right in giving us part of the Big Picture.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 7:56:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

as long as it's in complete accordance with the word of Rebbe Nachman, it's great and eternal.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 8:57:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Didn't Rebbe Nachman say in the future everyone will be Breslov?

 
At September 7, 2008 at 9:17:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

Rebbe Nachman was emphatic in his instruction to study many holy seforim that he and his chassidim did not personally write. Some such seforim are named in comments above, but there are, of course, others, too.

 
At September 7, 2008 at 11:38:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Rebbe Nachman's Neshama, like all others, are not bound to a place and is certainly in Eretz Yisrael.

You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you say that neshomo isn't bound by the place?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 2:29:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Yirmiahu said...

"Their 'opinion' is that a person should primarily devote himself to the study of the sections of the Tora which directly connect him to G-d. They warn against the study of the Talmud"

"הראשון צריך האדם ללמוד גמרא ופרש"י ותוס'" הר"ר אלימלך מליזענדק

גם לגמור כל הש"ס בכל שנה ושנה ובכל עיר ועיר לחלק המסכתות עפ"י הגורל או ברצון
בעל התניא, קונטרס אחרון ט

But most importantly there is Y.D. 242:4

 
At September 8, 2008 at 3:09:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rebbe Nachman says" Because today my book is already known and spread in the world, there is an obligation to learn only and exclusively my book"
Chayah Moharan 391 also Biur Halikutim of R" Avraham ben Rebbe Nachman.(the end of 282)

 
At September 8, 2008 at 3:14:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

yes, if a person is not connected to G-d they should not learn Talmud. The numerical value of "Talmud" is the same as "the Lamed" (a nickname for an evil Demon). The way to connect to G-d is by learning the books of Rebbe Nachman.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 3:19:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

yirmiyahu
The way of Breslov is different then the Baal HaTanya. Rebbe Nachman is the Tzadik Yesod Olam, The level of Moshe Rebainu and Higher then the Two Moshiacs together.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:26:00 AM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

The Arizal spent years learning Shas and Poskim before going into Kaballah. He also said that it was good to spend a few hours intensely learning Gemara and Poskim to "shred the klippos", and afterwards to learn Kabbalah.
Rabbi Nachman never said that people should learn ONLY his book. He knew Kol haTorah kulah, and his book contains the condensed wisdom from all the Torah, but that doesn't mean we will get all that just by learning it.
On the contrary, the more keilim a person has from learning other things, like Gemara, as well as having broad Torah knowledge in general, the more they will get out of learning Likutei Moharan.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:31:00 AM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

The Torah about the gematria of "Talmud" being the same as "Lilis" means that there is danger in learning Gemara- mainly, the spiritual danger of Ga'ava, since "Rabanus" is generally given as a measure of knowledge of this area of Torah. But G-d forbid to say that Talmud is bad in and of itself! On the contrary, because there is such kedusha there, there is also sacana, since "zeh k'neged zeh asah haElokim".
Also, Gemara is unique in the way it develops a persons mind. Without being familiar with the logical methodology of Chazal, one can never appreciate the basis or profundity of many other areas of Torah, such as Halacha, Midrash, and more.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:38:00 AM EDT, Blogger A Simple Jew said...

On the topic of learning Gemara, be sure to see Chabakuk Elisha's posting here

 
At September 8, 2008 at 9:58:00 AM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Rebbe Nachman says" Because today my book is already known and spread in the world, there is an obligation to learn only and exclusively my book"
Chayah Moharan 391


Anonymous: Don't distort Rebbe's words. He said numerous times to his chasidim and talmidim to learn Toyro Kulo - Nigle (Halocho, Gemoro and etc) and Nistar (Kabolo and Chasidus - Rebbe's own sforim as well as sforim of talmidey Baal Shem Tov), Sifrey Musar and etc. To say that Rebbe said not to learn anything except his sforim is a totally crooked statement.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 10:47:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

There is also the fact that Rebbe Nachman did not address in writing all the details of Torah knowledge and practcal application, only those that needed particular emphasis.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 11:54:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

behaltener

Anonymous: Don't distort Rebbe's words. He said numerous times to his chasidim and talmidim to learn Toyro Kulo - Nigle (Halocho, Gemoro and etc) and Nistar (Kabolo and Chasidus - Rebbe's own sforim as well as sforim of talmidey Baal Shem Tov), Sifrey Musar and etc. To say that Rebbe said not to learn anything except his sforim is a totally crooked statement

I am a Na Nach.You you sound like a crooked heart. and really brain damaged. No offence brain damaged doesn't mean unrepairable.
I just said what the Rebbe said (I did not say anything of my own accord) did you explain the Rebbe's words. No. You just called the Rebbe Crooked. Do you want it in Hebrew too? Do you want it in Yiddish? What did the Rebbe mean in your opinion. when he said. "Rac ve Ak sepher sheli"

 
At September 8, 2008 at 11:57:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Rabbainu clearly said the utopia would be for a person to do hisbodudus all day, Rabbi Nussun goes to great length to show that this was the way of Rabbainu, we have the point case given of a long summer day that Rabbainu spent in it's entirety, from right after Shachris till nightfall, with one of the chasidim in an isolated cave crying to Hashem. Personally I do not think that means not to learn anything at all, but it means a very bare minimum. Rabbainu said because this is very hard to do, and can not be expected or demanded of people, therefore there is a bare minimum requirement, at least some of the day should be spent in hisbodudus, and the rest may be spent in study. It is quite clear from this, that since the studying is as a substitute for hisbodudus, that the more the learning is in the fashion of hisbodudus, the better. Thus the Saba's calling for the learning of Rabbainu's teachings all day, is the true way of Rabbainu. This in fact was one of the things that made me realize that the Saba, and only the Saba, had it right.
As far as the quotes from chasidishe masters about learning Gemura, even though they seem to dispute the Arizal and Ramchal I have quoted previously, this is also explained by what I have written here. Before the Baal Shem Tov anyone who was truthfully seeking G-d would have to follow the teachings of the Arizal which call for complete ingrossment in the study of Kabala and meditating on holy names of G-d and the like. After the world at large rejected this way, Hashem Y' sent the Baal Shem Tov who taught a new approach of seeking G-d. At the time of the Arizal if people would have applied themselves to the pure teachings of the Kabala they would have made it. In the time of the Baal Shem Tov it was too late for that. The Besh"t had to show people how to apply themselves. Thus the Besh't showed how to apply one self and serve and seek G-d in every way. Gemora came back as a very acceptable path and way for a person to learn how to apply oneself for G-d. However this is only when the Gemora is part of the general approach of chasidus, like the rest of the books from which these quotes where taken from. Thus it is true they may have advocated learning Gemura, but this learning was surrounded and engulfed with all the devotions and practices of chasidus. Rabbainu put everything back to perspective, he made it clear the highest approach would be to act in constant hisbodudus to Hashem (elevating the Kabala to it's epitome), and at the same time he also showed the systems of how to get there and what to do when one wasn't there.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 12:05:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Do you want it in Hebrew too?

Quote the original (in Hebrew), and I'll show how you distorted Rebbe's words.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 2:23:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

כיום, כאשר הספר שלי כבר ידוע ונפוץ בעולם מחיבים ללמד אך ורק בהספר שלי

 
At September 8, 2008 at 2:41:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Bob Miller said...

Naanaach said above "It is quite clear from this, that since the studying is as a substitute for hisbodudus, that the more the learning is in the fashion of hisbodudus, the better."

Does this rule out learning b'chavrusah and through shiurim, the traditional way?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 2:44:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

And where is this quote from? If from Chayey Moharan, please specify the section (i.e. Shivchey Moharan, Maylas Toyrosoy or etc.). I don't remember seeing such thing ever.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 2:57:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

I don't have Chayah Moharan with such numbering 391 (I have regular Chayey Moharan, with sections like Shivchey Moharan and etc.).

 
At September 8, 2008 at 3:24:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't worry, behaltener - it's not in Chayei Moharan 391 in my numbered edition either (the Toras haNetzach 5761)

 
At September 8, 2008 at 3:59:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

This stuff that implies that the derech of the Ari rejects the learning of Gemara is pashut wrong and false. Furthermore, to suggest that Torah study is "b'dieved" borders on kfira.
Secondly, to suggest that Rabbi Nachman felt that Torah study was in any way secondary or undesirable is a complete distortion of his simple teachings.
Have you ever learned the first lesson in Likutei Moharan? There's a reason Reb Noson put that at the very beginning of the sefer (the lesson begins with an explanation that now, while the Klal Yisrael is in Galus, the essential Chen, or quality of grace, in the world is by the non-Jewish nations. But through Limud HaTorah, the chen of Yisrael is elevated, and causes all of our requests, both gashmi and spiritual, to be received in the hearts of all of whom we may have need. The emphasis of the lesson is on the profound spiritual impact of learning Torah)!

 
At September 8, 2008 at 4:31:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

to yosef,
When Rebbe Nachman said learn Torah he meant his Torah, first and foremost.
signed
a Na Nach

 
At September 8, 2008 at 4:40:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Did you try"Biur HaLikutim" by Morainu HaRav Avraham ben Rebbe Nachman (this is a classic Breslov text) in the end of simon 282 ? In my Chayah Moharon it is quoted from there.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 4:44:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

To Bob Miller,
Having a Chuvutah in Gemorah does not make one less Na Nach, You don't have to give up that form. It's just if someone is Na Nach they would want their chavrutah to be a Na Nach too. Or at least Na Nach frinedly.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 5:09:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

anonymous-
What do you then make of the Rebbe's instructions in learning in Sichos haRan, where he tells his followers to basically learn everything (Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Shas Bavli, Yerushalmi, Midrashim, Zohar, TaNaKh, Kisvei Ari, etc.)? His instructions in learning were extremely rigorous.
If a person only learned the Rebbe's sefarim, they would be left with not only incredible ignorance in Torah, but a lack of the basis of understanding Likutei Moharan itself on a deep level.
Do you mean to imply that we don't need ChaZaL? I think the Rebbe would be horrified if such were suggested in his holy name.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 5:30:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Really, I just had to take a breather and write this to all that are reading here, maybe it will get through to your brains and hopefully hearts. But honestly I have actually been growing from all this and am enjoying it. I hope that someone else also something good and useful from all this.


Obviously the above statement of Rebainu (the one from Biur Likutim) does not mean not to learn Chazal, duh, all you guys just keep missing to simple point we are trying to make. If you are Breslov, we have the same books (plus Saba's books) that we are learning. It is a subtle point that we are trying to make. That you are not getting. And it always seems to me by your answers that either you are not Breslov or you just don't get a simple truth. Rebbe Nachman says clearly that one can come to the Tzadik (meaning himself) and not feel his light. If a person wants a falsehood that is what they will get from the Tzadik. So no amount of learning, even of the Torah of the Tzadik will bring a person to the truth if they are bent on falsehood. So this is not an intellectual argument at all. Never have I heard any of you (especially behaltener) say anything inspiring about the greatness of Rebbe Nachman or of prayer. No. Just seems like trying to prove themselves right. And advertise themselves as knowing more or being an authority or something. Everyone wants Rebbe Nachman,s bones in Israel. The people of Israel, secular and religious, The Zionist Government, The Ukrainian Government too. It is only the Breslov "establishment" that has millions of dollars invested in Uman that want to keep the Rebbe in Uman. The same people that say that they don't believe in the miracle of the Petek. I noticed that you have not responded to my accusations of you opposers as being Sophisticates and lacking simple faith and lacking heart. You all just stayed quiet...hummmmm. The Gemorah says that keeping quiet means that you agree. If you do agree then it is to your merit. At least you admit it. I think that you don't oppose this accusation because you know that it is true and your readers know that it is true so no one says anything. Bob Miller never said on this forum that Prayer is more important then learning. None of you opposers ever said that being connected to G-d is more important then learning. Or crying to G-d is important. No, all these things are really simple and anyone can understand them, so they seem to you as unimportant. But news for you, in heaven they are important, to Rebbe Nachman they are important. What point are you trying to make with everything that you are saying, and everything that you are not saying. To me it looks like you are trying to say that Rebbe Nachman is not for everyone. It is only for the people that learn Gemorah. Rebbe Nachman learned lots of Gemorah. Never did he say that one needs to learn Gemorah to be a Tzadik. Never. Why? because you don't. Learning Gemorah is not essential to being a Tzadik. And being a Tzadik is the main thing (for one can be a learned person and completely evil). Rebbe Nachman said that you did need to learn halacha. Why? because you do need halacha. Tzadik first then Gemorah. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Is it because you want to look smart and make everyone else look dumb so that you can stay on top? Are you interested in simple service to G-d like dancing and reciting Psalms? Does not sound like it. You can prove me wrong on a quote or two. and I am really really happy to be shown that I am wrong. This way I learn and grow in truth. Truth is actually extremely valuable to me. Did I ever hear the word "truth" from any of you? Yes, from one person, Avi, he left this forum. But I am not going to leave it for maybe someone is reading this and maybe I am beginning to make sense to that person. You can't stop the Na Nach, better try to understand it and make peace with it now. No amount of opposing will ever make you happy. It might make you money in the short run. In the end all the money goes back to Rebbe Nachman and publishing his books (Na Nach). What a great embarrassment to the establishment of Breslov that most of the money, the great majority of money, came from Saba and a few Na Nach Baal Tshuvah's selflessly sacrificing their lives to promote the Books of Rebbe Nachman, and if that isn't enough you go through great lengths to prove yourselves right and belittle Na Nach. Though Reb Nusson and all the other early Breslovers all said that that was the HOLY OF HOLIES, printing and distributing Rebbe Nachman's books to the world. What are you interested in? Sitting in buildings, wearing Shtrimels, being accepted by people being call a "Rav"?

What is it that we are trying to say?

Rebbe Nachman is the greatest Tzadik that ever was and that ever will be. You don't say that do you? You call him smart. that he learned Gemorah, that he wants us to learn gemorah (which he does) but for the Na Nach it goes much deeper then learning gemorah. For Rebbe Nachman the truth is much deeper and much broader then learning gemorah (Chayah Moharan, in your version,343 or look in Maalat Torato Usipiro Hakadoshim # 4). It's not the smartest guy that wins. True smarts means having simple faith in G-d, without sophistry, that's real smart. Simple faith, like a child dependent on his parent. Every, I repeat, every other kind of smart is real dumb. I mean REAL dumb. That's what Rebbe Nachman says. And that is why the common masses like Rebbe Nachman. And that is why the common masses like Na Nach.
Why is it that all the "authorities" of Breslov all have issues with Na Nach? Because Na Nach went on ahead and sold eight million books of Rebbe Nachman to everyone, and they are still going strong as ever despite your opposition. Because of Na Nach everyone is reading Rebbe Nachman. And Rebbe Nachman talks to everyone. Now everyone has got Rebbe Nachman and now everyone has all the secrets of the Torah laid out for them in a simple way that everyone can understand. All the Secrets for everyone. I know the secret of the Torah. Do you want to know the secret of the Torah? I can tell you how you can know the secret of the Torah and the Secret of all the Worlds and of all of life. Do you want to know how? Read Rebbe Nachman, it really is simple, not always easy, but pray, ask G-d to help you. It's not learning Gemorah or Kabbalah, it is much much higher and much much more. It is so so so good, words cannot describe, so simple, so practical, so much for every single person in the world. Even goyim love Rebbe Nachman. Even a simple joe can have all the secrets of all the worlds. All they have to do is read the books of Rebbe Nachman, try to get what the Rebbe is saying, and try to fulfill it to the best of their ability. If they had a good day be thankful to Hashem. If the day lacked holiness for them they should ask Hashem to help them tomorrow. Simple, can everyone do this? Yes, except for the Sophisticate. For the Sophisticate it's too simple, The sophisticate is looking for some sophisticated way of getting through life, thinking that if they were only more wise, only more famous, only more anything but simple. You like the Gemorah? Great!! The Gemorah is extremely Holy. Na Nach does not say "Don't learn Gemorah" no. You like Gemorah, learn. Learn Gemorah, Just don't come off like it's the main thing in life or something. Rebbe Nachman did say learn Gemorah, He Never said in his books that Learning gemorah will bring the Redemption. Never. He did say that saying simple prayers will, Dancing will, Clapping your hands will, groaning and screaming to G-d will. Wow, Everyone can do these things! Everyone can bring redemption! Everyone except the Sophisticate. The Sophisticate ends up in Hell (there really is such place). The Sophisticate does not believe in miracles, The Sophisticate tries to prove that miracles don't happen. The Sophisticate ends up poor and in Hell. The simpleton is always happy, not stupid, but not very learned in the beginning, but in the end, learned. I like challenges. I am not challenged to learn the gemorah right now in my life. I have a very big other challenge. To Bring the Redemption into my life and into the life of my family and my friends (Na Nach) and to the world. I think that Rebbe Nachman is the man. I think that if I just pray and dance and learn torah, learn Torah in order to learn how to pray better and dance better, that's good learning. For Praying and Dancing make Real big changes in the world. As anyone who prays and dances in holiness can tell you. And no amount of Torah proofs from anywhere can convince me or my friends that praying and dancing and clapping hands in holy happiness is not making miracles. We have Rebbe Nachman who says it does. Yes it is the "Official Na Nach World Belief" ( the O.N.N.W.B) that Dancing everyday and singing Na Nach and praying and clapping hands and learning Rebbe Nachman Torah's bring one happiness, success in life, health, and Redemption, personal and collective. It looks silly, but it is a prayer to dance and sing and chant. Rebbe Nachman says you should never laugh at someone who makes funny movements while praying, just as you would never laugh at someone making funny movements when trying to save themselves from drowning. Well, plain truth be told, the world is currently drowning. Not in a literal sense, not with physical water, no, the world is drowning in atheistic ideas, a lack of simple faith. The Na Nach is saving himself and his friends. It looks funny, it's true, And you opposers of the miracle of the Petek sure do look and sound smart and normal to the whole world. But doubting a miracle? And believing some lie? (Yes I personally happen to know that the story of the opposers is a lie, I know the facts but this is another article that will come out in the future) Everything that you are saying sounds great, except this type of thinking, the type of thinking that doubts the miracle of the Petek, leads to heresy which leads to terrible punishments. You can keep all your buildings and all your fame and all your "honorable beliefs", your money will eventually all go to Rebbe Nachman, mine already does. I'll keep Rebbe Nachman and Saba. and keep it real simple. At least try to keep it simple. I hope that you got a better understanding of Na Nach. If you would like to know the difference between truth and falsehood. Join us at NaNach.Net.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 5:58:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

My dear friend Yoseph,
About the Lamed (Sister Achera) All I was implying in my statement was that without the proper guidance of Rebbe Nachman's teachings, gemorah can be a Sam Mevet (potion of death). The same with the Kabbalah. The same with all the Torah. Without being firmly grounded in the Teachings of Rebbe Nachman the whole Torah can very very easily turn into a Sam Mevet. (I've seen it happen). Without Rebbe Nachman there is no real Torah. This statement might sound extreme to an outsider, this is not intended to condemn all the litvachs. I like Litvachs, some of my best friends are one of them. It is a reproof to a Breslover. They should know this. Na Nach tries to get the world onto the side of merit, is trying to make the masses righteous. Rebbe Nachman can make you a Tzadik, Chazal is part of that, a very very big and important part of that (central), but without Rebbe Nachman and a personal desire for truth and screaming and praying and crying out to G-d for truth, The whole Torah is very dangerous. Prayer, Learning Rebbe Nachman and following his advice to the best of your ability and being happy with simple faith and being happy with your level of learning and always striving to grow will always guide you right. My major beef with this site is that it openly denies the miracle of the Petek. Na Nach is about Chazal all the way!!! visit us at NaNach.net

 
At September 8, 2008 at 6:06:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Friend Yoseph,
that statement in Biur Likutim is very puzzling to me as well. I quoted it as an emphesis. In Yiddish it is a little different. I don't think that it meant "only and exclusively" in yiddish, I think, it says very strongly that we are obligated to learn Rebbe Nachman. But funny in Hebrew it says "Only and exclusively" I'm curious on your take on it. What do you think it means?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 7:36:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Did you try"Biur HaLikutim" by Morainu HaRav Avraham ben Rebbe Nachman (this is a classic Breslov text) in the end of simon 282 ? In my Chayah Moharon it is quoted from there.

I didn't find anything even closely similar in Biur haLikutim 282. Chayey Moharan can't quote Biur haLikutim, because it (Chayey Moharan) was written significantly earlier by Reb Noson himself.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 7:46:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Everyone wants Rebbe Nachman,s bones in Israel.

Simply a lie. Not more, not less.

And advertise themselves as knowing more or being an authority or something.

Are you saying this? You are posing as some kind of a guru, who says that only "Saba" is the true way, and everything else is either sheker, or not sincere or "doesn't see the light". You are so sure of yourself (as you wrote) that you are a tzaddik, you see the light and everyone else is just "doesn't get it". May be you should remind yourself about the fact that gayva is a bad quality, especially remembering that you are already such a tzadik?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 7:54:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

My major beef with this site is that it openly denies the miracle of the Petek.

And for all except Nanachs it is a total nonsense that Nanchs stick this story of petek all around as if it is true and as if it has any significance to Breslov, and after people tell them that they are totally out with that, Nanch they blame them like christian missionaries that they "don't see the light",
"they'll have to pay for that", "better save yourself now, or...". Don't think this will cause everyone to feel great affection to Nanachs afterwards.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:10:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"I didn't find anything even closely similar in Biur haLikutim 282."
I got it from the hashmatos in chaya Moharan. I guess I'm just privy to special information. It's published by the French Na Nach's I guess you are going to say that they made that up, What about The Rebbe Saying "my books are all you need to do complete Tshuvah" I guess that you think learning Gemorah is more important then complete Tshuvah.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:13:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Simply a lie. Not more, not less.

I suppose that you don't speak to people in Israel nor read the Newspapers. I know people involved in this case full time. I think you got something to hide. Are you getting scared of losing your income or something?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:16:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

are so sure of yourself (as you wrote) that you are a tzaddik,

Rebbe Nachman says that one should see themselves as a tzadik. It's the last lesson in Likutey Moharan. You should read it. It's a good book. following The Rebbe's advice is not gaivah. By the way, are you Breslov?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:22:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"And for all except Nanachs it is a total nonsense that Nanchs stick this story of petek all around as if it is true and as if it has any significance to Breslov"

Still, denying the miracle is very sophisticated and shows a lack of simple faith..Not very Breslov dude, your loosing ground. Is anyone listening to you besides your "friends"

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:30:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Nanch they blame them like christian missionaries that they "don't see the light",
"they'll have to pay for that", "better save yourself now, or...". Don't think this will cause everyone to feel great affection to Nanachs afterwards.

Just because Christian missionaries talk about Hell does not mean that there isn't one. Just because simple faith is a Christian Idea, doesn't make it less Breslov. Great affection I get from G-d and Rebbe Nachman and Saba and my Na Nach friends. Who cares what you think of me, or your "friends" (anyway here in Israel and soon in America, Na Nach has already won the populous). Maybe you care what people think of you. Maybe that is why you are so stubborn in denying miracles. Keep talking dude "by your own words you will be exposed" come out with it what's bothering you? Why are you so upset?

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:48:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"are you saying this? You are posing as some kind of a guru, who says that only "Saba" is the true way, and everything else is either sheker, or not sincere or "doesn't see the light".

Saba said these things, not me. Yes he is a "guru" (guru means teacher, I call him a Rabbi, it's a Jewish thing.) You don't Like Saba or something? Funny, everyone else does, except for....well you know who.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:49:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

I suppose that you don't speak to people in Israel nor read the Newspapers.

I'm informed enough about the situation, and I'm not partcularly interested in either governments' or politicians' (Israel / Ukrainian or any other) preferences about it. The Rebbe explicitly specified his will, that he wished to be buried in Uman (I collected some sources about it here: http://bahaltener.livejournal.com/18656.html ). I'm aware that there are such groups like R' Weisenfeld's or similar, that claim that they need to transfer Rebbe's keyver to Eretz Yisroel. However this is totally their own agenda, not rooted anywhere in Breslov, and what surprises me the most, that they dare to come today, to go against Rebbe's explicit will, and to claim to be so enlightened, as to say that it is proper to transfer Rebbe's keyver from Uman?

Rebbe Nachman says that one should see themselves as a tzadik. following The Rebbe's advice is not gaivah.
Posing to other people as a tzadik while actually ridiculing tzadikim is pretty gayvadik. The Rebbe says about seeing oneself as a tzadik (in some aspect), as an inner way of avoydo, and not as a way to pose to others and to bust with this. The later is pure gayva.

Still, denying the miracle is very sophisticated and shows a lack of simple faith..
Calling a false thing a miracle is not a simple faith, but rather just foolishness. The Rebbe says in Sipurey Maysies (in Chochom veTam), that Tam was not a fool, while he was simple. Don't equate foolishness with simplicity. It is not the same thing.

By the way, are you Breslov?
Yes. And if you are a Breslover, and even live in Tzfas, you should be aware about Reb Luzer Kenig, who is a teacher and mashpia to many Breslover chasidim. He is a great person, and if you are looking for Breslover Chasidus - go learn with him.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:51:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Saba said these things, not me.
So what? You are repeating them. Don't put your responsibility on others.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 8:57:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

(anyway here in Israel and soon in America, Na Nach has already won the populous).

Breslov is not about wining any populous. It is about chasidus and avoydo. Go and learn from real Breslover chasidim.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 9:13:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"Posing to other people as a tzadik while actually ridiculing tzadikim is pretty gayvadik. The Rebbe says about seeing oneself as a tzadik (in some aspect), as an inner way of avoydo, and not as a way to pose to others and to bust with this. The later is pure gayva."

That's only true if your not a tzadik. But if you are it's not Gavah to say that you are. Before people or before G-d is one thing for a man of truth. If one says that they are not a tzadik when they really think that they are they have a false humility. What is the problem with calling myself a Tzadik, All my friends and family are Tzadikim too. I never said I was better then anyone. Maybe I think that I am the lowest tzadik. Still a tzadik, I say this before G-d. Do you have a problem with calling yourself a tzadik before people but call yourself a Tzadik before G-d as an "inner avoda" To me it is one. Before G-d I am a Tzadik as Rebbe Nachman told us to stand. And before people I stand as a Tzadik.These two things are one to me. As a man of truth I say this. Do you also think that It is Gayvah to call yourself a man a truth? Only if your not true. I am true. My words are true. False Humility is the worst Gayvah.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 9:15:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"Calling a false thing a miracle is not a simple faith,"

Calling a true miracle false is Apikoris.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 9:23:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"So what? You are repeating them. Don't put your responsibility on others."

Saba said all the Rabbi's are false. I'm with Saba, You have a problem with that statement then you have a problem with Saba. And yes, I think that that is a problem. I take full responsibility. I am a follower of Saba. What he says goes. You don't like it, what do you want me to say. I don't have anything against anyone. I just don't like people saying bad things about Saba. It's Totally understandable, He's my Rabbi he taught me about Rebbe Nachman. I think that he understood the book. You just want to rain on everyone's parade. To call the Miracle of the Petek a lie is a pretty nasty thing to say about Saba. I don't like it. It is not a very nice thing to say. I think that I am being very patient.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 9:33:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"Breslov is not about wining any populous. It is about chasidus and avoydo. Go and learn from real Breslover chasidim."



I never said that it was, Your the one that said

"Don't think this will cause everyone to feel great affection to Nanachs afterwards."

your trying to confuse our readers.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 9:37:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Your pushing me away. I can't stand the lies and the Sophistry. I gotta take a break for a while. I think I fully stated my position. You don't need me here anymore. If anyone wants to know the Truth of Na Nach.. come to NaNach.net

 
At September 8, 2008 at 11:08:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Calling a true miracle false is Apikoris.
It is not even relevant, since the story of petek itself isn't true. And if you want to believe in it - it's your own choice, you can't prove it, there is no obligation to believe in it, and it is not really relevant to Breslov. That's was the view of all chaveyrim, and contemporary Breslovers of R' Odesser who were mashpiim at that time. This is the view of Breslov in general, and only Nanachs believe in this "miracle". And you can't call apikoyres the one who doesn't hold this story as valid.

To call the Miracle of the Petek a lie is a pretty nasty thing to say about Saba.

He didn't lie, and he believed in this story. I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying that the base for it itself is not true, and he believed in imaginative thing, and when he was told what happened really, he didn't accept it.

Saba said all the Rabbi's are false.
If he meant really all - he was simply mistaken. If he didn't - you don't even understand what he meant.

What is the problem with calling myself a Tzadik, All my friends and family are Tzadikim too.
Really, I don't think there is any point in further discussions. As well as with your other colleague, after he spoke about true tzadikim in a deragatory way. If anyone else is interested - they can continue discussions with you. I'm personally not interested.

 
At September 8, 2008 at 11:20:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman

 
At September 9, 2008 at 10:28:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Yirmiahu said...

"Rebbe Nachman learned lots of Gemorah. Never did he say that one needs to learn Gemorah to be a Tzadik. Never. Why? because you don't. Learning Gemorah is not essential to being a Tzadik."

To be a tzadik one must observe halachah, and the halacha is one must learn Gemara.

 
At September 9, 2008 at 10:47:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

where's the halacha about learning Gemura? The Rambam writes explicitly that people do not have to learn Gemura, in fact that is why he wrote the Yad Hachazaka so that people would be able to learn what ever they had to know in a simple and direct fashion, leaving the study of Gemurah to the elite few who are on the level.

 
At September 9, 2008 at 10:51:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

The verse says that everyone of the Jewish nation are consideres Tzadikim. The Zohar says that this is referring to the fact that they have a Bris Mila, Rabbi Nachman - Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman reitterated this. So my friend Saba Noon is completely justified for calling himself and his friends tzadikim, if you don't see it this way, perhaps it is because you are deficient in this area thus you are faulting others with your own faults (כל הפוסל במומו פוסל) are you Jewish?

 
At September 9, 2008 at 10:57:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Bob, very interesting point you brought up about learning with others. Even though based on the line of reasoning this would be the case, however when we talk about learning with others this brings to the case many other considerations. The mishnayos show a very big difference between one who learns by himself and one who is learning with others - where the Shechina is with them. Also when one is learning with others (In the true way of the teachings of Rabbainu) this constitutes 'hafatza' which is the most important avoda. Also it is building the houses exponentialy....

 
At September 9, 2008 at 11:44:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

NaaNaach -

Are you simcha naanaach from NY!

Shalom, brother!

 
At September 9, 2008 at 2:40:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

In Sichos Haran Rabbainu tells of all the things he really recommends and wishes everyone could learn every day, there's just so much good Tora, praise the Lord, that the day does not suffice to give us the time to even learn a fraction of what we should, so says Rabbainu. But at the same time Rabbainu consoles us that it is possible to be a sincere, kosher, and holy Jew even without any learning at all (this is the view of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai in the Talmud, that one may suffice with the recital of Shma twice a day). Many people try to use this as proof that Rabbi Nachman demand us to spend our day learning the whole Tora every year. It seems quite clear to me that all Rabbi Nachman is doing is encouraging us to learn the holy Tora as much as possible, pretty good advice. This does not detract in any way from Rabbi Nachmans clear directions for us to spend as much time as possible doing hisbodudus.
In general the way of the Kabalists that proceeded Rabbi Nachman was that a person before spending time studying the revealed Tora should establish such a strong awarenes,connection, and unity with G-d that he would see G-d everywhere, he would then be prepared to study the Talmud properly, in a way that he would reveal the light of G-d. One who studies the Gemura before he is sufficiently aware and attached to G-d is at great risk, and endangers the whole world, because the Talmud is written in a zone which wants to hide G-d and even the presence of G-d is usually reduced to dry cut laws, so the more recognition it is given the more G-d is hidden G”F, unless it is studied by someone who is able to reveal G-d.
The Baal Shem Tov and Rabbi Nachman teach that if one is attached to a true tzadik and following his ways he may also study the Talmud, the Tzadik will see to it the study will result in furthering the revelation of G-d. But obviously according to the Baal Shem Tov and Rabbi Nachman the main thing is to follow the way of the true tzadik, and in Rabbi Nachman's case there is no doubt that this is the way of hisbodudus.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 1:21:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Yirmiahu said...

"where's the halacha about learning Gemura?"

Y.D. 266:4

See also Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Talmud Torah 81:11. While the "Gemara" he speaks of doesn't necessarily mean the Talmud per se, I do not think you can give an example of what could be learned that would fit this description while still conforming to your assertions about what should be learnt.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 2:18:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For more info on NaaNaach and all of the outstanding work he does with Jewish youth, see:

http://www.vosizneias.com/19466/2008/08/18/fallsburg-ny-teenagers-getting-drunk-after-supervised-mlvah-malkah-got-arrested/

or

http://news.jewkey.com/2008/08/fallsburg-ny-teenagers-getting-drunk-after-supervised-melave-malkah-got-arrested/

 
At September 10, 2008 at 2:22:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

oops: Here is the full link -

http://news.jewkey.com/2008/08/
fallsburg-ny-teenagers
-getting-drunk-after-supervised-
melave-malkah-got-arrested/

 
At September 10, 2008 at 2:55:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H
Forgive me, I cannot begin to understand the questions raised here. As a talmida of Saba Yisrael, i.e. Na Nach, I am amazed that a question has even been raised in regard to the strict adherence to Halacha. Anyone who reads Saba's words will clearly see that not a single word he spoke could possibly be divergent to Rebbe Nachman's. The petek and its message of the new song is a revelation of how the Tzaddik Rebbe Nachman will renew this world, and anyone who merits witnessing what Breslov is doing within the world at present times and how the Tzaddik's teachings are the perfect cure for the ailments of this generation will rejoice in that song and thank Hashem for this light. Beezrat Hashem Yitbarach energies will be used to understand the passion of the followers of Saba Yisrael to bring Rebbe Nachman's words to each and every Jewish home rather than generate controversy.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 3:10:00 AM EDT, Blogger Sfas ha-Nachal said...

The second questions had nothing to do with halachic observance:

"Do what you want with my teachings..."

Is usually interpreted to mean that the Rebbe was leaving an opening to diverse understandings of his teachings, precluding anyone from claiming they have the "correct" interpretation.

This is what I wanted to know from the na nachs: how do you answer this portion of the statement.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 3:54:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

It was obviously necessary for Rebbe Nachman to make it absolutely clear that the basis of all is halacha and its observance, because as he was given to fully understand the generation that would be revived by his teachings, our generation of lack of belief and of despair - he knew that his words could be "taught" and "adopted" without G-d Forbid stirct Torah observance. Rabbenu had to make it clear that "there is no despair in the world" for example is because Hashem is with us in all places, and that to become close to Him we must observe his commandments even if we have not even begun to grasp the connection as revealed by Likutei Halachot, and not just pacify ourselves with encouraging phrases that must not stand alone without a commitment to Torah.
Why exactly do you think those connected to Saba are not faithful to rabben's words?

 
At September 10, 2008 at 8:34:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Yirmiahu,
Your citation was incorrect, the halacha is not in Yore dayu 266:4, but in 246:4. The root of this Shulchan Aruch is the Rambam (there's a good chance its actualy verbatim, but I can't check it up now) The Rambam states clearly that study of the Pardes is included in the classification of Talmud, thus if one were to study the Pardes he would fulfill this area of learning. Furthermore it seems to me that the halacha is just saying how to divide the time learning, it not paskening against Rashb"i and I think its Ruvu who paskened that one can be yotzai with Krias Shma, this halacha is dealing with extra learning. Rabbainu said clearly that the highest level is to do hisbodudus all day, it could be that anyone on that level, is obviously making tefilos out of toros, so he's fullfilling the learning to. From your atitude I'd imagine if you met such a tzadik and demand from him to account that a third of his tefilos were based on Mikra, a third on mishna etc.. But don't worry I have a way out for you, if you look up the correct source which I brought down you'll see that Rema brings a psak that the third category, which I have already clarified includes Pardes, includes all the other categories, thus if we see or even merit ourselve to engage in hisbodudus and Rabbainus holy teachings, which are the epitime of Pardes, we need not worry about anything, because the whole Tora is included in what we are doing!
So you see it pays to be Nanach!

P.S. listen to Gita she saying good things. Listen to your heart its telling you seek Hashem, its telling you to say Nanach.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 12:32:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Yirmiahu said...

“if you look up the correct source which I brought down you'll see that Rema brings a psak that the third category, which I have already clarified includes Pardes”

1.The Rambam does not, at least in our source, say that Pardes is included under the category of “Gemara”, rather he says it includes learning the midos for expounding the Torah and Issur v’Heter and so forth. If you have a makor where he says it includes Pardes, bring it.

2.The Rambam says, “I maintain that it is not proper for a person to stroll in the Pardes unless he has filled his belly with bread and meat. ‘Bread and meat’ refer to knowledge of what is permitted and what is forbidden, and similar matters concerning other mitzvoth.” Yesodei HaTorah 4:13.

3.What the Rama rules is that “Yesh Omrim that with Talmud Bavli (which includes Mikra, Mishnah, Gemara) a person fulfill his obligation for them all. A person should only study Mishnah, Gemara and the Poskim which follow after them. With this a person will acquire Olam HaZeh and Olam HaBa. However one should not study other wisdoms. In any case to study other wisdoms incidentally is permitted, and only if they are not books of heresy.” He goes on to rule like the Rambam that one should only study Pardes after having attained proficiency in halachah.

There is more to be said but I do not have more time.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 3:28:00 PM EDT, Blogger Tzfat NaNach said...

- As the founder of NaNach.net I would like to answer these questions.

- Most Nanachs study Shulchan Aruch every day as required by Rabbanue.

- There are many Na Naches that are pretty learned in Halacha and Talmud.

- If a Na Nach needs a Halacha paskened he will go to a Rabbi that knows Halacha. Every Na Nach has a different Rav they go to for Halacha, depending on their location. Almost always the Rav is not Na Nach or Breslov. As long as a person knows Halacha and is not an open Shakran looking for money and honor, I think most Na Naches would ask him a question in Halacha. Not every person can be expected to know Shulchan Aruch inside out, therefore when he need something answered he goes to a person that knows more Halacha then him.

- However when it comes to Avodas Hashem and climbing spiritually, there is absolutely no need for a Rav. Rebbe Nachman gave us the Etzot and they are clearly written down. If a person does not follow them, it is due to his personal laziness and not because he is missing a Mefursam in his life.

- Infact having a Mefursam is a big distraction. The Saba writes that although the Meforsam might be a lot more advanced then you, if he did not erase his bad nature completely, not only can he not help you at all, he also trasmits his bad into you and makes things worse.

- Obviously there will be times when a person need chizuck or hadrach in Sefri Rabbanue. For that there is Sichas Chavarim. He should find another Na Nach that is more knowledgeable then him and has reached higher levels to ask him for his opinion. However in no way is this other person superior to you, you are both Breslever Chasidim trying to follow the teachings of Rabbanue. If he knows more and has reached higher levels he can help you out, but as a friend not as a Mefursam.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 3:28:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Yirmiahu,
Don't understand what your getting at. Open up the Rambam (it should say right there in the Shulchan Aruch where it is, if you don't know how to do this, try out the 4th chapter of Yisoday Hatora that's where I seem to recall where it is) and you'll see it, do I have to type it in for you?
And yes the Rambam, as I've already said clearly says in previous comments, which you might not have taken the time to read, the Rambam says that the only prerequisite for learning the Pardes is a proficiency in halacha - such as a women and child can be expected to know. Being that the Rambam paskens that women are forbidden to study Gemura, it is quite clear that according to the Rambam anyone who has a running knoweldge of the basic halachos is permitted to study the Pardes (it amazes me how people misconstrue this Rambam, and even my father who, in Litvish and Chasidish standards is a huge Talmid Chuchum asceded that the Rambam is pretty clear as I have stated, after a while he offered an attempt how one can turn the Rambam so that only a very knowedgible person could learn Pardes but admitted that it was very far fetched).
Thanks for sharing the 3rd point - what is it that your getting at, B"H I saw the Rema inside, and I told you to look at it, and I built on it.
Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman!

 
At September 10, 2008 at 7:22:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Tzfat NaNach: Your statement about "mefursomim" just stress the interest in spiritual anarchy by Nanachs, and have nothing to do with "transmitting bad" or "no one else is better than another". It also contradicts the Rebbe himself, his talmidim and their talmidim. Such spiritual anarchy is not Breslov, and if Nanchs prefer spiritual anarchy - it means they don't prefer Breslov.

Also, none two people are the same. One can learn and benefit from teachers who are capable and suitable to be mashpiim.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 7:25:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

This however goes together with the fact, that if one is not suitable to be mashpia, he can bring harm if others learn from him. But this doesn't mean that no one is suitable. And if Nanchs refer to R' Odesser who said that no one is - they are wrong. But from their perspective they shouldn't go to ANYONE to ask questions in Halocho too. No one is emes, are they?

You can't separate Halocho from avoydas Hashem. It is a pirud and is against the Toyras emes.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 7:39:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Also it is a denying of Toyro sheBeal Pe of Chasidus (i.e. the claim that no one can be a better teacher). This is similar to tsdoykim, who beleived only in the Toyro shebikasv, and rejected the oral tradition. This is actually the same pirud, that causes Nanachs to say that Halocho is separated from avoydas Hashem.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:12:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Na Nachers say:

"However when it comes to Avodas Hashem and climbing spiritually, there is absolutely no need for a Rav. Rebbe Nachman gave us the Etzot and they are clearly written down. If a person does not follow them, it is due to his personal laziness and not because he is missing a Mefursam in his life."

The Hidden says:(the one who hides the miracles of Hashem?)
"Also it is a denying of Toyro sheBeal Pe of Chasidus (i.e. the claim that no one can be a better teacher). This is similar to tsdoykim, who beleived only in the Toyro shebikasv, and rejected the oral tradition. This is actually the same pirud, that causes Nanachs to say that Halocho is separated from avoydas Hashem."

According to the Toyro sheBeal Pe of Chasidus and according to The Gemorah and most importantly According to Rebbe Nachman Tzadik Yesod Olam the term "avoydas Hashem" means Prayer first and foremost only by extension does it mean learning and doing mitzvot etc. Halacha we get from the Shulchan Auruch Spiritual advice we get from Rebbe Nachman and friends (other Na Nachs). Can you tell us why in the world do I need a Merforsam when It was NEVER the way of Breslov to have one? (read Kokavey Or Avanay Barzel the last story)

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:27:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"In these times there is no one worthy of running after authority, rather (one should) truly run from honor and authority" Likutey Eitzot kavod 34

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:29:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H
No one is separating halacha from Avodat Hashem - anyone who studies the Likutei Moharan of Rabbenu knows all is One, and could not possibly ask to separate Torah from Avodat Hashem. And those connected to Saba surely study Halacha as Rabbenu demanded, and those who can surely study Gemara, and others may not always be able to not G-d forbid that they do not believe it is essential but rather because with absolute messirut nefesh we cannot begin to imagine, they are out on the streets bringing joy and inspiration to other Jews, they are out on the streets from morning to night bringing Rebbe Nachman to those who are distant - from morning to night without worrying about money or anything else, only to make Rabbenu's name known and to help another Jew!
We must try to understand that no one is separating halacha from one's spiritual longing to ascent - those trying each day to grow closer to Hashem through the teachings of Rebbe Nachman are reminded each day that his words are a remedy to all our physical and spiritual ailments.
And Saba's smile is the same!

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:36:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Halacha we get from the Shulchan Auruch Spiritual advice we get from Rebbe Nachman and friends (other Na Nachs). Can you tell us why in the world do I need a Merforsam when It was NEVER the way of Breslov to have one?

Learn about emunas chachomim, sinceit seems that you aren't aware about such concept. The Rebbe speaks about it for example in in Likutey Moharan I:61 in very strong terms. And he speaks there exactly about the problem that befell Nanachs, as is apparent from your question.

The lack of emunas chachomim takes people away from mishpotey emes. It means they can't judge things right in avoydas Hashem and Toyro, (because they reject guidance of chachomim and tzadikim, and they do what they think is right on their own). This means they'll be at serious risk of mistakes even when reading the written words of tzadikim. It very clearly stated in Rebbe's words.

Since Nanachs don't value tzadikim of the generation and rediculing all chachomim calling them "mefursomim", and say that only from other anarchists (as you said only from other Nanachs) you can have some guidance, this causes them to fall away from mishpot hoemes, and that's why they can't even follow Rebbe's words properly, pushing their meaning away from truth.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:43:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"But from their perspective they shouldn't go to ANYONE to ask questions in Halocho too."

Not true: Your not listening. pay attention we repeat.

Na Nach's like poseks. We just don't trust people who oppose the Petek, posek or not. For example Rabbi Moshe Feinstein we like him and He's a posek. Na Nach's accept Rabbi Moshe Feinsten. We love you guys too. We just think that your a little bit slow about the Petek and so don't trust you with any of the higher spiritual things like advice on Devekus and service of the heart. But if no one else was around and we were really pressed for an answer we might even ask you for a psak in certain cases. Your just not the Rebbe, we wouldn't ask you about who we should marry, where we should live, what are the deeper meanings of LM or anything else of importance outside of Halacha that had any real long term significance. Because If it is not obvious to you as the nose on my face that the Petek is real, we think you are a little bit asleep spiritually, that's all. No intention to offend you, but you wouldn't be unless you really did want to enslave us.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:50:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

The Na Nach are the Chochomim of the generation. Saba was the Tzadik ha Dor (under Rebbe Nachman) You do not have Emunas Chochomim, By not recognizing a tzadik when you see one. Just like you don't recognize a miracle but try to hide it away with some explanation.

 
At September 10, 2008 at 11:59:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

Rabbenu made it very clear the problem with even the rabbis in the generation of "the footsteps of Moshiach".
Because of Na Nachs close attachments to a pure path of simplicity, they hear Rabbenu's words and know that we must be careful, and not lose simplicity, and to strive very hard to stay clear from 'kfira' and 'gaavaa' at all levels.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:08:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

We don't need your famous "Rabbis" not because we think that they are necessarily bad people, some of them might even be tzadikim a little bit. We don't trust them because they take honor for themselves and spend a lot of money on their shuls when they should be printing Books of the Rebbe and Distributing them. So there is no real evidence to us that they know how to run their own lives properly. To us it is a very very big curse to be famous and live in a nice house, and a very very big embarrasment that not every single bit of money goes only to Printing Rebbe Nachman's book. We think that American middle class life is disgusting when so many are suffering do to a lack of Daas that ONLY reading Rebbe Nachman's books can give. It is a very very very big embarrasment for us to have any money at all in our bank accounts. If we actually had any money it would never show in our houses and certainly we would be never let any one know, It's just embarrassing. Also we are very very afraid that if we took any advice from a person that is treated with so much honor and has so much money that the same terrible fate C"V would happen to us. We run run run from Honor, it is only for Hashem and The Tzadik. In short, we feel pity for some of these Meforsamim we want to help.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:15:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

go Gita go! awesome don't stop writing, exactly true, simple and extremely important, everything that you are writting is Rebainu, Is Saba is bringing close the Redemption. Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!!!!!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:33:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Rabbi Yitzchak Brieter said about Printing and distributing the Rebbe's Books and spreading his teachings:

"This is the fundamental activity because through it all jews will be brought to the true path. That is our ulitmate goal, the goal for which all the worlds were created, This activity must be the "holy of holies for all the followers of the Tzadik and they should selflessly devote all their energies to it. They should constantly seek ways of expanding these activities and spreading the Rebbe's teaching further and further abroad in order to inspire every Jewish soul to come to G-d."

A Day in the Life of a Breslover Chassid p.52

Sounds like Na Nach besimcha, the Ultimate goal, Yeah! Na Nach besimcha, printing the books, "the goal that all the worlds were created, Na Nach besimcha! the holy of holies Na Nach besimcha! Na Nach doing the will of the Tzadik without Meforsamim.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:37:00 AM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

The Na Nach are the Chochomim of the generation. Saba was the Tzadik ha Dor (under Rebbe Nachman)

As I said. Chachomim in their eyes, that's why they don't have emunas chachomim and respect for tzadikey hadoyr, and do what they want. Simple, and you are OK with that. But the Rebbe said it is not OK.

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein we like him
That's because you think that he "endorsed" the petek? This isn't relevant, since no one can endorse it. Especially those who weren't even there. People who wrote it said what happened. R' Odesser who didn't see what happened didn't believe them, and believed it was a "miracle" or some kind of sign from heaven. Again - it was a matter of his believing into what someone imagined. It is not a matter of fact or something that can be proved. Therefore any kind of "endorsement" of it isn't relevant at all, since it is simply not possible.

We don't trust them because they take honor for themselves
Better say don't trust because you want to do what you want, and can't handle someone telling you it's wrong according to the Rebbe too. "Honor for themselves" should be pretty familiar to Nanachs, since you say that Nanachs are all tzadikim and chachomey hadoyr.

We run run run from Honor
Doesn't fit at all your words before, after you call yourself "the only tzadikim".

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:59:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

About the petek, no one who believes that the petek came from Rabbenu 'needs' an 'endorsement'. I personally think that the message in the petek is a 'special song' that not everyone (yet) can hear, and that is okay, when the time comes we will all hear, and sing it, but the message is very lofty and I think it is an error to argue about it. For those who are not Na Nach, I think you can respect the fact that if I am attached to the Tzaddik Saba, it would be impossible for me not to believe in everything Saba said about the petek.
Secondly, Na Nachs are not anarchists. A passionate faith can lead to a very dedicated way of living that faith. Intense dedication does not neccesitate insanity, or error, or anarchy. There is the Holy Torah, the mitzvot, Likutei Moharan, Likutei Teffuilot, Likutei Halachot, Likutei Etzot, Sichot HaRan, Sippurei Maasiyot - and you suggest that Na Nachs do whatever they please?
I am sure you have the best intentions, I would ask please dear fellow Jew, that for a moment you just sit back and think instead of argue. It is a very good thing to pray to Hashem to understand what is presently in 'hester' from us.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 2:31:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"endorsed" the petek? "

The Petek does not need an endorsement, It is it's own endorsement. A miracle speaks for itself, it does not need an endorsement. Duh!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 2:40:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"As I said. Chachomim in their eyes, "
Who endorsed you guys, who called your meforsamim authentic? What makes you so sure that Na Nach has no Chochamim? How many Na Nach's do you know? Probably none. what makes you an authority on Na Nach. You just sound like you are talking about something( Na Nach) that you know nothing about. How do you know that you all are not Chochamim in your own eyes? Emunas Chochamim does not mean that no one is false. there are false Rabbi's. Rebbe Nachman talks about them. So, without mentioning names who are the false Rabbi's in your understanding?

 
At September 11, 2008 at 2:47:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"and do what they want"

No, what the Rebbe wants and what the Shulchan Aurch says. The Rebbe said very clearly that every dummy could understand. "Even a simple person can get meaning from a book" You want to make Breslov into some elite heirchy,
Dictatorship of Mephorsamim that we must blindly accept that tell me I don't understand a book like Likutey Moharan. Likutey Halachot. And another Na Nach can't possibly explain it to me. Why are you posling Na Nach? According to your twisted thinking, Any one that has simple faith in the simple meaning of the simple words of Saba cannot possibly understand what the Rebbe wants me to do.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 2:55:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"People who wrote it said what happened."

You would rather believe a misnaged then a Breslover. I would be embarassed if I were you. It is like taking the word of a goy over a Jew. You are going to a misnagged to get a story straight and use his story to be little a Jew. You look pretty stupid. Do you think that Reb Nussun would go to to a misnagged and then use his story to make fun of a holy Jew like Saba. Is this your kind of Breslov? I would quit while you still have a chance, This is all being published you know.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:03:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"that Nanachs are all tzadikim and chachomey hadoyr."

Rebainu said the lowest of my followers are bigger then the rest of them. That alone makes any Na Nach (called by the name of the Rebbe Himself) pretty special. I don't do what I want I do what SABA says. SABA is the Manhig. You can keep all your "Chochamim" SABA is better then them all. SABA is real cool. You should listen to SABA. I don't think you even read anything of SABA. Perhaps, instead of talking to me you should read the book yourself. It's easy Hebrew and anyone can understand it.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:11:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"the only tzadikim".

Dude this is being published at least quote me correctly do you know how to read? I never wrote that. a person does not need to be Na nach to be a Tzadik. But to openly oppose the petek. Just a little goyish that's all.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:18:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

gita,
He's playing with words, and twisting words, He thinks that he can get away with it because maybe his followers don't read. Anarchy is not chaos. its friends working together in harmony. Na Nach is sort of like Anarchy. But we are not calling ourselves anarchists. and we believe in leadership, as long as it's true. we all should pray for him I think that he's going through a lot right now. I like what you wrote.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:33:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

thank you for your encouragement. anything of worth that i may say is from the Tzaddik, whose rachamim is endless.
Rabbenu said that this generation would be characterized by 'division', just one more sign of how Rabbenu's teachings are for this generation. the arguments against Na Nach and sometimes placed even against Saba (G-d forbid) sadden me because who possessed Ahavat Yisrael more than Saba? i don't expect evegryone to understand/accept about the petek - but we must ALL learn from Saba simple and absolute faith and true and unconditional Ahavat Yisrael; we must ALL learn from him just how ultimately significant it is to be dedicated to making Rabbenu's name known in the world and to help have his books reach every Jewish home. we ALL have to learn from Saba how to laugh!
have a great day!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 11:32:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

About the Rambam,

This is the same Rambam that wrote the Mishna Torah? The Mishna Torah
that he himself said that he wrote so that we will no longer need to
learn Gemorah? Isn't that why the whole Torah world was upset at him,
because he said that you don't need to learn Gemorah? All you need is
the mishna Torah and not Gemorah anymore? Are you using the Rambam to
prove you need to learn Gemorah? No, I don't get it, can you try to
explain that again?

 
At September 11, 2008 at 11:52:00 AM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Gita said: i don't expect evegryone to understand/accept about the petek

Good. However your colleagues Nanchs here seem to expect that implicitly, and act in a missionaries or sectarian fashion, threatening, insulting and trying to "win the populace" to those who doesn't accept that story. Let them understand, that this is nonsense, and they can't expect that and furthermore act like they act.

Their methods remind missionaries in a whole number of ways. For example they say one thing, and afterward are contradicting themselves, trying to undervalue that issue. For example they always bring how Reb Moyshe Feinshteyn accepted the "petek", and if you tell them that this is totally senseless, they right away say that petek doesn't need endorsement etc. Such twisting is a common missionary tactic (i.e. saying something different even contradictory at different times, the main task is to "win the populace").

This makes any discussions with such individuals totally senseless, and it makes sense mix in and write against them, only if they are trying to spread something wrong to unaware people.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:09:00 PM EDT, Blogger A Simple Jew said...

Since there are so many comments on this posting, let's all resume our conversation on this topic here

 

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