Friday, February 09, 2007

Tolerance

Chayei Adam [Zhitomir, 1849]

Seforim Gesheft:

"This book was printed in the famous printing press in Zhitomir of the grandsons of the Rabbi from Slavita, Rabbi Moshe Shapiro son of Rabbi Pinchas from Koretz.

This book is rare and interesting whereas the Chayei Adam was in Vilna and he opposed the Hassidism, and it is interesting that the Zhitomir printers who printed this book were Hassidim."

20 Comments:

At February 10, 2007 at 7:24:00 PM EST, Blogger A Simple Jew said...

Over Shabbos, I noticed this in Siach Sarfei Kodesh 1-522:

"Reb Noson of Breslov praised the halachic work Chayei Adam. He said that its author, Rabbi Avraham Danzig of Vilna, had a very keen ability for clearly and precisely clarifying the law. "

 
At February 10, 2007 at 11:46:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

This sicho isn't really verified. In general Siach Sarfei Kodesh isn't a good source, because of its bad reliability. (There are simply factual mistakes, strange statements and discrepancies with other sources). And about that Chaey Odom had "keen ability for clearly and precisely clarifying the law" is doubted by poyskim. Rav Bick za"l said, that Chaey Odom wasn't a poysek, but wrote chidushim according to his own logic (i.e. he lacked the knowledge of hoyroo which is required from a real poysek). Therefore he said, often his conclusion are logical, whoever wrong! Because the rules of hoyroo say otherwise. (Rav Bick za"l wasn't from Chasidim, and still he didn't held Chaey Odom as an authority in Halocho not because of machloykes, but because he wasn't a baal hoyroo).

Chasidim on the other hand has another reason to dislike Chayey Odom. Chasidim hold, that Chaey Odom was responsible for not letting the Gr"o to meet with Reb Menachem Mendel Vitebsker and Baal haTania when they came to Vilno, what caused a terrible machloykes and persecutioins to continue. Some wouldn't even take his sforim in hands because of that.

The fact that his sforim were printed in Zhitomir doesn't say, that Shapiro brothers liked Chayey Odom personally. They didn't hold him to be an apikores or the like, and may be thought there will be customers for that printing so it was enough to print sforim. Or they sought to reduce fights by that. It is not an endorsement of Chayed Odom per se.

I once asked Reb Dovid Shapiro, did he hear anything about this issue with Chayey Odom in Breslov circles, especially from Reb Gedalya ztz"l. He told me the following:
=============================
I did hear from Reb Gedalia an interesting story about the Chayei Odom. When Reb Mendel of Vitebsk and the Baal Hatanya went to Vilna to try to meet the Gaon they were stoned by the local Jews. Reb Mendel later said to the Baal Hatanya that he was not afraid of any of their stones except the stones of the Chayei Odom, because he meant it leshem Shomayim.

Incidentally, in the first volume of the Machon Yerushalayim edition of Pnei Shlomo by Rav Shlomo Ganzfried, there is a transciption of a letter written by Rav Ganzfried explaining how he decided the halachos he put in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. He says that he took the opinions of three poskim and decided according to the majority of them. The three were the Chayei Odom, the Shulchan Aruch Harav, and the Derech Hachaim (on the siddur).

On the other hand, Rav Shlomo Kluger in a tshuva in Kinas Sofrim defends a decision of his which was different from the Chayei Odom and explains that he has the greatest respect for his Yiras Shomayim, but does not feel bound by his psak.

 
At February 11, 2007 at 12:10:00 AM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I heard over in a shiur that the Mishna Brura tends to go with the rulings of the Chaye Adam.

 
At February 11, 2007 at 12:28:00 AM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

That's one of the reasons why chasidim are in general not too much into Mishna Brura. It says there explicitly that it also uses the Gr"o as an opinion. The same Rav Bick za"l said, that Mishna Brura as well wasn't composed according to the rules of hoyroo and therefore one can't conclude psakim from there! (Sounds unusal, no? Many today hold it for a "final psak").

Also in the introduction Chofetz Chaim writes, that he wrote it simply to aid those, who learn Shulchon Oruch (and therefore he refrains from making a final psak).

 
At February 11, 2007 at 5:17:00 AM EST, Blogger yitz said...

A Yid: Strange that if the Chayei Adam and Mishna Brura were not poskim, how they are so widely accepted today. I guess Klal Yisrael has overruled Rav Bick ZT"L [if he indeed said what you wrote] in this matter.
I know that Rav Neuwirth [Noivert] in his Shmiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa often quotes the Mishna Brura & to a lesser extent, the Chayei Adam, which would appear to indicate that HIS rebbe, HaRav HaGaon R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, held of these sefarim. I don't know about Rav Moshe Feinstein, but it would be very surprising if he didn't hold these sefarim in high esteem as well. I don't think that Rav Bick zt"l was as big a posek as either Rav Moshe or Rav Shlomo Zalman.

 
At February 11, 2007 at 3:12:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yud said...

Reb Tuvye Goldshteyn za"l (a talmid from Reb Moyshe Fainshteyn za"l) as well held, that he is not bound by Mishna Brura, because it is not a psak compendium, but rather a likut of different biurim, and Chofetz Chaim wasn't paskenen (because he didn't use klaley hoyroo), he just explained the sugye.

The fact that it is "widely accepted today" as a psak, despite Chofetz Chaim's warning not to do it is a general sign of a chaos that is found today in Halocho world. SUch things can't be "overruled". Speak with anyone from Eimek Halocho (talmidim of Reb Tuvye Goldshreyn za"l). They are very sad at the fact, that today klaley hoyroo are totally ignored by many, who enter the field of Halocho.

===
I know that Rav Neuwirth [Noivert] in his Shmiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa often quotes the Mishna Brura & to a lesser extent, the Chayei Adam
===

I in general avoid sforim to use as a practical manual, which aren't copmosed by those who for sure know klaley hoyroo and are knowledgeble enough to write a psak kompendium, and not just a overview of the subject. For Hilchos Shabes I prefer "Shabes keHalocho" from Rav Farkash.

 
At February 11, 2007 at 4:33:00 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I heard from R' Moshe Wolfson, shlita (who presumably heard from his Rebbe, Reb Shraga Feivel, ztl) that the Chofetz Chaim was a Rosh Yeshiva, not a Rov, and therefore he paskened al pi lomdus. In contrast, the Baal Hatanya and the Oruch Hashulchon were Rabbonim, who had to deal with people's actual shailos on a day-to-day basis, and therefore they had more siyata dishmaya to pasken al pi darchei horo'oh.

Accordingly, R' Wolfson recommended that for halocho lema'aseh, I should learn either Rav's Shulchon Oruch or Oruch Hashulchon. Nevertheless, he also told me to learn the Mishna Brura on Siman Reish Mem when I was a choson, and I believe he definitely did not mean to denigrate the Chofetz Chaim in any way.

 
At February 11, 2007 at 7:26:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

=======
The Chofetz Chaim was a Rosh Yeshiva, not a Rov, and therefore he paskened al pi lomdus.
=======

That's exactly what Rav Bick said also, and similar to what he said about the Chayey Odom, that he made his conclusions according to logic (lomdus), but not according to rules of hoyroo.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 11:14:00 AM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are many Chasidishe Rabbanim that qoute the Mishna Brura. They might not hold by his psak when it comes to something they have a kabala for from past generations (such as davening mincha after shkia, nusach, etc) however when it comes to Hilchos Shabbos and other things where they have no set minhag they will take his view into account and many times pasken like him. Needless to say this is after going thru what the Rishonim and Achronim had to say on the subject.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 11:48:00 AM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ich bin a chusid but I just don't understand how people can talk about de heilege Chofetz Chaim so casually - did he know how to paskin? did he not know? He happens to write in the introduction to Mishna Brura how he came to his conclusions. And don't you think he new the "klulay hoiro"? These Rabbunim listed who said not to use the Mishna Brura to pasken I'm sure said it in a very respectful manner. I'm sure no one means any disrespect but I think this is something one should discuss with his Rov and is not for a blog discussion. The Gra may have opposed Chasidus but everyone agrees he did it lshem shumayim and this has nothing to do with how he held in halacha its possible to be a chusid and to agree with the Gra in halacha. even in Nefesh Hachaim if people really learnt it up they would see how it does not argue on Chasidim. See sefer Chayei Nefesh from Reb Gedalia Kenig ( in English from Rabbis Sears & Zeitlin see here: http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/Chayei_Nefesh_Part_I.pdf and http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/Chayei_Nefesh_Part_II.pdf )I think I might have rambled on for too long so I'll stop.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 12:19:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

This is not to show any disrespect or the like. The issue is purely practical - how does one view the Mishno Bruro. As a collection of psakim, or as a biurim on Halocho. Cofetz Chaim was a great tzadik, and no one argues here to denigrate his kovoyd. But since some say that they view Mishno Bruro as a psak compendium - it is valid to bring different opinions.

Chofetz Chaim says in introduction, that in case of a sofek he mostly relied on the Gr"o's decisions. That's may be sufficient for someone, but according to poyskim such issues aren't decided according to who was greater and etc.

Also, the fact that today Halocho world is a chaos is a sad thing, that can't be simply ignored.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 2:34:00 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Also, the fact that today Halocho world is a chaos is a sad thing, that can't be simply ignored."

Who says todays "Halocho world is a chaos"? We have many great poskim from all sides - to name a few - Reb Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, Chacham Ovadia Yosef, Reb Shmuel Halevi Wosner. And on a smaller level I know of many Rabbonim that paskin using Kloly Horah.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 3:10:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

Speak with those who aren't afraid to discuss it, and they'll tell you. We do have poyskim, but despite it, the field of Halocho in general today is a chaos like never before. (One of the main reasons is milchome I assume).

 
At February 12, 2007 at 3:48:00 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Speak with those who aren't afraid to discuss it, and they'll tell you. We do have poyskim, but despite it, the field of Halocho in general today is a chaos like never before."

Every generation has tzadikim and poskim. As Reb Elazar of Lizensk writes in the back of Noam Elimelech the Rabbonim we have are in accordance to what we are. The better we are the better the Rabbonim will be.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 4:32:00 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

> The better we are the better the Rabbonim will be.

It's mamash inyona d'yoima -- Yiftach b'doiroi k'Shmuel b'doiroi. V'chi Yiftach ish boir?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. No offense to anyone intended.)

 
At February 12, 2007 at 5:05:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

Anon: Sure, this reflects the general situation, but it doesn't change the fact, that chaos is chaos, and the first thing is at least admit it to oneself and not to be disillusioned.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 5:09:00 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is makes it chaos?

 
At February 12, 2007 at 5:11:00 PM EST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe some of the bloggers who know so much about halach and how to paskin should pasken.

 
At February 12, 2007 at 5:56:00 PM EST, Anonymous A Yid said...

Anonymous: May be not. This isn't a joke.

Chaos means, that many decisions which are made aren't correct or can stand ground according to Halocho. It doesn't mean that there aren't true poyskim today, it just mean that confusion is so great, that many don't even think about it at all being disillusioned.

It reminds me the story with the poisoned weat, that makes everyone mad. When it is so bad, people start thinking it is alrady a norm...

 
At April 23, 2008 at 10:54:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

all of you don't know what your talking about . Rav Eliyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky BOTH HOLD THAT THE ACCEPTED HALACHIK SEFER AS WHO WE FOLLOW BY IS THE MISHNA BRURAH. FORGET ANY OTHER ROV AND PLEASE DONT TELL ME THAT A YID IS CHABAD,THEREFORE IS ALSO AGSINST THE HOLY CHAYE ODOM MANDELABC@HOTMAIL.COM

 

Post a Comment

<< Home