Based On "A Childish Prank" - Na Nach Nachma
(Picture courtesy of Yonassan Gershom)Rabbi Dovid Sears commenting on Wikipedia & Na Nach Nachma
The Na Nach "movement" was started by a group of French baalei teshuvah who discovered an elderly Breslover Chassid named Rabbi Yisrael Ber Odesser z"l in an old age home in Eretz Yisrael. When they heard his story about having received a "petek" or letter from Rebbe Nachman when he was a bochur in Slonimer Yeshivah, they believed Reb Yisrael Ber and began to disseminate the now-famous petek and the "mantra" it contained: "Na Nach Nachma Nachman me-Uman!"
This is evidently based upon the Shem be-Achorayim, which the Rebbe mentions in Likkutei Moharan II, 8 (the last lesson the Rebbe gave, also known as "Tiku / Tochakhah"). Whoever invented the petek substituted the Rebbe's name for the Shem HaVaYaH and added "me-Uman."
I was personally told by Rav Zvi Ashkenazi, a Slonimer Chassid and one of the leading shochtim u'bodkim in America, that his grandfather had written the petek and tucked it into one of Reb Yisrael Ber's seforim as a childish prank. But when he told his extremely devout and temimusdikeh classmate that it was a joke, Reb Yisrael Ber refused to believe him. (Which shows you the danger of letzonus!)
The Na Nach group is a totally marginal phenomenon in Breslov today and not one Breslover gadol buys the business of the petek. But for these kids, the Na Nach sect with its rejection of middle class culture and its pursuit of electric niggunim ecstacy is a way to express themselves in a religious world that for one reason or another they can't relate to.
Being strongly committed to the Breslov mesorah, I can't endorse the Na Nach thing; but I also can't negate a movement that keeps many kids basically within the geder of Yiddishkeit, and which doesn't seem to be doing any major harm that I know about. Reb Yisrael Ber also left a small fortune of money that people gave him to publish the Breslover seforim, and his group has probably done more to publish and disseminate these books than anyone in Breslov history. If the Na Nachs would turn down their amplifiers in Uman I might be even more liberal-minded about them -- but as the saying goes, "that will be the day!"
104 Comments:
I always find it interesting when 'mainstream' leaders speak of less-than-acceptable segments as "totally marginal". At almost every kever tzadik I stopped at in Israel, I found Na-Nachers learning, dancing, and music. Going up and down the main street in Geulah, every kippah selling store sells Na-Nach kippahs (now in various colors).
In the main Breslov seforim store in Meah Shearim, which is next to the main Breslov shul (the one with Rabbi Nachman's chair), half the music is Na-Nach music.
They may be marginal in the context of Breslov institutions, shul's and yeshivot, but they're the public face of Breslov in Israel. And their warmth, simcha, ahavat yisroel and energy draws in many a seeking secular Israeli youth.
...Sometimes pranks and tricks are the path of entry of kedushah, as it would be too strongly opposed otherwise.
Akiva - you simply don't know the black part of it, and better you wouldn't know it really. One shouldn't rush to say that there is no harm, and these are just a Yidish "hippy club" with ahavas Yisroel. While they print a lot of sforim, there are really bad things there which are direct opposite of ahavas Yisroel.
Chalilo - they are not a "public face of Breslov". It is if you say, that meshichistn are a public face of Chabad. Try saying it to any normal Lubavitcher.
There is another MAJOR difference between Chabad's Meshichist'n and Breslev's Na Nachs. The Meshichist'n make up a sizeable part of the Chabad community, maybe even more than half, and include in their number many prominent rabbonim, such as Rabbi Leibel Groner, Rabbi Itzche Shpringer, the Rosh Yeshivah in Seagate who previously was in Morristown, and many more.
However, the Na Nachs represent a tiny fraction of Breslev, keep separate from the rest by their own choice, and their shittah is NOT accepted by ONE prominent leader in the Breslev kehilloh.
It may not be "politically correct" to call a spade a spade when it comes to fringe groups and leaders and ideologies in this Day of the Underdog. But if a person stands for EMES it is a dirty job that must be done.
Akiva
I never said that the Na Nachs don't have their good points, despite the things I can't buy or endorse.
In fact, I once heard from my teacher, Rav Kenig of Tzefas (who does not accept the Petek, either), when Rav Kenig was still awaiting a lung transplant, that if he were in better health and encountered a group of Na Nachs dancing in the street, he would join them!
Simchah is a great thing.
But so is da'as.
A Yid - I would agree that meshichistim are the face of Chabad in Israel. The non-meshichistim in Israel are considered meshichistim in the US! And the in US, the Israeli Chabad meshichistim would be questioned as whether they are still within knesset yisroel.
I don't know much about the Breslov kehillah, but I did spend a good bit of time with Breslov friends in Israel recently, as well as encountering a lot of Na-Nachers throughout the country.
Reb Sears - I was drawn and touched by their simcha and apparent simplicity at the holy sites.
You and A Yid seem to be hinting at a significant downside of which I'm unaware. But on it's face, I wouldn't mind spending some time with them.
> And the in US, the Israeli Chabad meshichistim would be
> questioned as whether they are still within knesset yisroel.
Nu, this should be done by any honest Lubavitcher, nothing to do with US. Rav Bistritzky z"l hy"d put one of such in heyrem, even though that culprit killed him afterwards. I think as it was pointed above - if one is looking for EMES he wouldn't look at a false "public face" etc.
For generations Rabanu's derech had significant oposition eg Spola Zeida, Savorner to mention a few. I remember my days in Chabad and Bobov the opposition i faced in learning Rabanu's Sipuri Masios. So the fact that "mainstream Brelover Leaders" dont agree with the Peteck does not deligetamize the Na Nach derech.On the contary it pobably indicates that there is real kedusha there. we should focus on actus and respecting that there are sivu panim latorah including the derech of Rabanu.
Cativa vecatima tova
> we should focus on actus and respecting that
> there are sivu panim latorah including the derech of Rabanu
Try to convince nanachniks concerning this while they call all Brelover leaders "mefursomim shel sheker" to insult them and to put them down in support of their favor of anarchy and see if they'll listen.
Reb Gedalya Kenig ztz"l once noted, that if Reb Avrohom Shternhartz ztz"l had not encounter oppostion from several misnagdim, and would play a bigger role in shaping of the Breslover kehilo in Eretz Yisroel (he did play a biggest role though, but as a teacher, and not as a kehilo leader) all this wild anarachist movements in Breslov would never come into being.
Great Posting!
But..what about the "Shir Naim" (chaful, meshulash & meruba).
I was shocked when i saw Na Nahh graffiti everywhere in Israel, including on the Armenian Genocide posters in the Old City!
Pro-Na Nach Anon:
I have always been perplexed by the logic of people who say that simply because an idea or a person or a movement, etc., is opposed by an "establishment" or "mainstream" means that it must be somehow superior. Or in your comment above, "it indicates that there is real kedushah there."
Why?
Because talmidei chakhomim don't applaud the Na Nachs for their superficial and self-indulgent approach to a lofty, profound, holy derech in avodas Hashem that has been passed on from generation to generation by tzaddikim and ovdim who in many cases had no shaychus to olam hazeh bekhlal?
Do you have any idea of who the Na Nachs are and what they preach, and who the so-called mainstream Breslover leaders are and what they preach (or teach)?
Or do you just believe in all "underdogs" indiscriminately?
If so, please think about what you are saying!
I'm not calling the Na Nachs heretics or branding them as evil or anything of the sort. I would just like to take a closer look at your logic.
According to you, every heretic who bashed heads with an establishment of any sort must be the "good guy," and any defender of any tradition must be the "bad guy!" Spinoza is ipso facto the nirdaf, and the rabbonim of Amsterdam the rodfim. Ditto Shabsai Tzvi. Ditto the Karaites. Ditto Muhammed. Ditto Yoshke Pandrek. Ditto the biblical Novi Sheker...
Isn't there such a thing as emes?
old-fashioned - one point I made that no one responded to, we do sometimes see that certain situations of kedushah must enter this world in a non-direct fashion. We see tefilos written in Aramaic, so the melachim don't understand? Of course we have the story of Yaakov and the bracha from Yitzchok.
These 'non-direct' paths seem to be to prevent opposition from the other side, opposition which would be of such a level that would prevent it. Alternatively, if done directly perhaps the kedushah would exceed what can enter the world, thereby negating free will.
While I certainly agree that anarchy has few positive and mostly negative traits, the leaders of our generation (and I'm not specifically speaking about Breslov here, but I am referring to those within the various religious communities) do not seem to be taking the big stands that would seem appropriate.
One would think that contraversies over evolution and the internet are the biggest concerns of our time, and the implosion of the state of Israel, anti-religious turn of the government, US tuition crisis, and a Haman in Iran with a declared purpose of destroying the Jewish people nothing to be concerned about.
Anarchist ideas are not totaly without a precedent in Yiddishkayt. They can be found in Don Yitzchok Abarbanel and in writings of Baal haSulom. Don Yitzchok Abarbanel states (concerning appointing a melech) that actually Toyro doesn't want us to have a ruler, but wants to be moral enough to live in harmony without any goverment. While this sounds very nice, in practice it is out of the question, until Moshiach times (that's why he says himslef, Toyro gives a mitzvo of the melech). Anarchy may be nice in theory, but in practice it is awful (viewing the current state of society).
ASJ, thanks to you and Rav Sears for this fascinating history. I had really not been familiar with the story behind the story before this...
On a side note... What bothers me, especially in Israel, is that everyone thinks of Breslov and they automatically think Na Nach. When people from the past hear I'm Breslov, they ask me "now you're one of those people who jump in the streets??"
To say the least, it is annoying that such a relatively small group has in a way "taken the face of Breslov". Meaning, they became so well known that everyone thinks that Breslov = Na Nach.
They may be at virtually all Kivrey Tzaddikim, and definitely print and distribute Breslov works on the biggest scale, but to the unknowing person on the outside, they give a bad name to regular Breslov.
And, I happen to be one who personally suffered from this false association (Breslov = Na Nach).
How have you personnaly suffered from this false association?
is there any movement of breslovers to guide the na nachs?
we have a large group of passionate people here who are ripe to really get to the root of breslov hasidus. i would love to see traditional breslovers reaching out. i think it's interesting that rav kenig said that if he were feeling better he'd dance with them. what does that say? on different levels it could mean that he would embrace their intention and try to steer them properly.
is it easy to do such a thing? no. but you have the "disco rabbi" and we remember the BeSht...this is very rich soil that these youth are into. let's try to bring them in!!!
when you google "na nach nachman" you'll see "forum" from the jewishtimes of baltimore. it has a very disturbing quote saying that rabbi israel odesser said he was the messiah etc. would reb dovid please address this. this is very serious and should be well known.
the sincere passion of the na nach youth should be constructively embraced...but any misconceptions about mashiach need to be clarified. breslov doesn't need the problems that chabad has. may G-d clarify and heal it for all of us. amen.
There lots of opportunities to learn authentic mesoyro and Chasidus al pi Brelsov. Na-nachniks DON'T want it, since subconsciously their goal is anarchy, and not so much Chasidus. What do you propose? To force them? Man has a behiro after all. Some prefer to be hippies-anarchists in night clubs. Some prefer to be hippies-anarchists dressed in shtrayml and kapote. Is it good? Not at all. But probably better than in night clubs. Forcing them has no benefit. They value anarchy, and you want to rid them of their ideal? That's the core thing that attracts na-nachs. Being anarchists, while trying to be frum. I don't think you can "reach out" etc. They are not mislead. They intentionally have chosen to be what they are. Argue with them? Sometimes when they want to hear.
You say "anarchy" like it's a bad thing.
Keep in mind that if there were anarchy, there would be no anarchists. Where there is no anarchy, the theories of anarchism are relevant, thus necessitating the existence of anarchists
Everyone I know in Chabad loves the "Nacmanites", including me. you just gotta love them. we all have a lot in common with them -- we are all Jews! Like Chabad, they get people to feel happy about who they are, and happiness breaks all boundaries. Jews should be happy to be Jews and Goyim should be happy to be Goyim.
everybody wake up. na nach has nothing to do with the na nachs. the petek itself says that na nach is a secret. only the ones who follow the advice of saba completely can be zoche to understand its true meaning. just because a person wears a na nach kippa doesn't make him a follower of saba anymore than someone who claims to be a breslover, a follower of rabbeinu. a true breslover is someone who is mekayem torah 123 completely...
to get to the bottm poiabout all this arguing is that i blev that rabbi nachman is the tzadik emas wich makes him the king now a true king like rabbi nachman knows how to take care of his nation making sure nothing gets involved thats sheker with his ppl that means if na nach was sheker rabbi nachman who reached the highest would have the power to get rid of it but thats not happening na nach is the biggest fire in breslov today ther the ones in uman 3 times a year even more and rabbi nachman knows wat hes doing in breslov ther is no shker wen we rabbi nachman as our king NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!THE WHOLE WORLD WILL SCREAM whoever denies the petek says rabbi nachman cant take care of his flock and they deny the tzadik emes and the torah to my most prechias student my fire will burn NA NACH NACHMA nt NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!
would rabbi sears pls clarify:in israel odesser's book he talks about mashiach in ways that are not correct or appropriate. this is cause for concern.
re na nachniks not being interested in structure or 'being reached out" to...this doesn't apply to all of them,and the outreach is important to try to bring them to more grounded breslov chassidus.
So basically you are saying that this is all Na Nan Nonsense.
misnagdim..
the na nachs are mamash the only somewhat sane people i know, literally. you just got to forget the machlokes a minute and have a serious chat with one.
these quotes from these rabbis against na nach might have something to do with why the na nachs call them mefursamim shel sheker. - these rabbis are obviously trying to prevent people interested in t'shuva from getting beyond what they represent.
Grace of G-d :
Dear Reb David,
Thankyou for your opinion on the Holy Letter. There are many, many people who strongly disagree with you.
Rabeinu says anyone who wants to come purify themselves & follow his teachings can become Tzadikim amitim.
Sabba did this to an extraodinary degree, I think B"H if you really do hisboidedus about it, HaShem will show you that it's much more important not to listen to rumours,
but to think & feel for ones self.
Rebbe Nachman - is the Tzadik Yesod HaOlam, 2nd only to The Holy One Himself, may he be Blessed forever & ever. Rabeinu chose to write a letter to one of his precious students, what's the problem ?
You take to heart so much the words of someone who doesn't follow Rabeinu's path & you let that shape your idea of what happened.
Rav Koenig shlit'a doesn't hold by the Petek, coz it wasn't written to him, he has his own connection to Rabeinu as you do too. I think maybe concentrate your energies on your avoida & not worry about disproving someone elses Reality.
w/ love & blessings for much understanding & less complaining,
Avraham Ya'acov Morris.
NaNachNachmaNachmanMeUman :)
To supporters of "petek":
The mere fact that Nanachniks call real Breslover mashpiim "mefursomim shel sheker" clearly shows that their goal in anarchy, and the petek is just a method how to popularize the anarchist approach. They don't need leadership, because otherwise they'll be forced to conform to Breslover traditions, but they don't want, because it is against hippie-freedom lifestyle.
Pretty simple matter, without any fuzzy-obscured pseudo mysticism with petek and etc.
i have to agree with everyone who DIsagreesss with you.....the peteck was not only givin for Sabba Yisroel...it was givin for everyone..the whole am Yisroel...and for you too.
its a reminder that we ARE all Tzadikim if we work on our emunah and betachon and be beshimcha and spread the sfarim of Rabeinu. the only reason why somone would not like the peteck would be for his own kavod...bc we all know sabba yisrael hated mifosam shel sheker...Evryone can attach themselves to Rabein ubuy reading his sfarim. its all in there. nothings left out.
and Know Very Well...that sabba said its not even just about the peteck....its about the Name how we got this secret ....the shem HaTzadik. even if it was a prank.CHAS VSHALOM bc i DONT Beilieve that. then we still have the Shem simpled doubled...with Rabeinu left us with last. the Redemption. and the right time.
its the name its the sfarim its the trust only in HAShem...its the runiing away from kavod and thinking your something. its the not being comftrable with you life and having emuna and runing after HaShem even if the desire or ferver falls a bit...that means you have to return all the days of your lives.
i suggest you rewrite your page...unless you would bet you soul on it that its meanigless...bc if your wrong....your wrong on something too high to wanna be wrong in...
oh and also all the "breslover "gadolim""" are starting to admit the petek is emet. but there dont want to loose fallowers so they say..."oh but its to high to understand its not for us" and sabba said TIS FOR EVERYONE...EVERYONES THE PRECOUIS STUDENT...
keep dancing bc even though you werent shown its emet yet...doesnt mean thats bad...BC WVR HASHEM WILLS IS FOR THE BEST>..SO DANCE THAT YOU THERE AND IM HERE>..BUT ASK HASHEM FOR REAL EMET EVEN IF YOU LOOSE EVERYTHING ON THE WAY...like AVRAHAM YITZCHAK AND YAAKOV...and every real tzadik all the way to SAbba Yisroel.
oh and NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAM!!!!!
A Nanach: Which Breslover Gadol has recently accepted the petek as emes?
I'm not a Nanachnachmer, but I strong believe that this movement is a good thing. The petek is not a "prank". I rather think R" Zvi Ashkenazi - like you guys here - fears the so called "anarchy" and energy of the Nanachnachmers, and he or his gandfather made the story up. Maybe they are just jealous.
As I see it, there were many books in the room, only R" Ber Odesser himself had the key, no one knew he ate something of fast of tammuz (so there was no need to "cheer him up"), later R" Ber Odesser was miraculously drawn to this specific book, its the original handwriting of the Breslover Rebbe etc. It sounds very authentic to me. Na Nach Nachma is both, modern-contemporary and very spiritual. A good thing.
My first impression of the Na Nachas was that it was some sort of Israeli cult. However I took the time out to talk to some of them and I saw that they were pretty serious about their Judaism. I do however strongly disagree with their anarchistic view that they state on their "na nach blog". I think that they are a little misfit about their theory of not following rabbis.
ALTHOUGH WE DONT ALL AGREE ITS BEAUTIFUL TO SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE TAKING TIME OUT OF THERE LIFE TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE PETEK, KEY WORD OF COURSE "TRY". RABENU SAYS "ALL BEGGININGS ARE DIFFICULT" AND OBVIOUSLY SOME OF US HAVE A HARDER TIME EMBRACING SUCH A BEAUTIFUL MESSAGE. when the petek comes your way you can use your free choice( all chochmot put aside) to believe in all it has to offer, or you can limit your self by sididng with numerous people who claim to have written it. either way the petek stays as precious as it is, with or with out you. but why would a person who knows that g-d is infinitly good not take a moment to hear out such a miraculous story. we all recieve peteks in our lives in diffrent forms for example: you loose something and you search for it for days untill you find it in the exact place that you searched for hours. that is a personal petek- hashem reminding you that allthough there is a logical system, hashem surrpasses all and wants you to do the same. first step dont be so damn logical, because the biggest miracels are not, and if you want to be part of them you better stop trying to understand them!!!!
what makes sabbahs petek so special is that unlike our "personal peteks" that we need to look oh soo deeply to find, cuz we are so lost in our own worlds. sabbah got it straight up in his face, not to mention from a place of TESHUVA. for those that embrace it, it manifests in the most magnificant ways. it sad that ppl percieve our appreciation for the petek as cultish. its all but cultish. we are here to offer it to all because its ifinite. i would like to say that all groups have bad representation includining nanachs and some have egzagerated. but dont let some people who have missunderstood the total message rob you from coming close to such chesed chinam. by posting nanach all around we are attempting to take people out of their limted mind ( for just a moment) and tap them in to the FEELING that the petek manifests. the feeling that we are all potential tzadikim, the petek is for all of us, bitul tefila and teshuva are the first NECCESARY steps on your path to avodat hashem, and you dont have to be a genious to be part of any of it. BY THE WAY, FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE A HARD TIME DROPPING THE LOGIC, HASHEM HASNT FORGOTEN YOU....RABBI MOSHE FIENSTIEN, POSEK HADOR, PERSONALLY WROTE A HASKAMA STATING THAT THE PETEK IS A MIRACULOUS LETTER....
TRUST ME I HAVE SO MUCH MORE TO SAY BUT IM A MAMA TO LITTLE NACHMAN MYSELF AND HES ABOUT TO WAKE UP. BUT ID LIKE TO LEAVE YOU ON ONE LAST NOTE.
a person grows in this world based on his personal choises. without using his free choise he is unable to go from level to level. this being our ultimate goal for one cannot come close to g-d by staying in the same place. i mention this because it saddens me to witness my fellow jews, as well as breslever hand over their own precious bechira to their "rabbanim" asking them if they should travel here, or buy this, or even marry a certain person. worst part of all these rabanim think they are capable of answering. so im sorry if thats your relationship with your rav, but that is a "mefursam shel sheker". take it or leave. your rav might be great but one percent of sheker still acounts for something. thats why a true breslever KNOWS that rabeinu is tzadik yesod olam. hes left the perfect path for us to sereve hashem with ALL our potential giving us all the tools we need. we just need to belive in ourself and have a little bi more confidence. for a nanach sabbah is a livivg example of one who truely lives rabeinus teachings, but def does not steel our chance to get closer to hashem as each one must on his own personal level.
so drop the ego and expand your ability to recieve beyond your mind can fathom. enjoy the ride
NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN
the petek cannot be explained. If you merit to believe in something as outrageous as this letter from heaven, then you know what i mean when i say emunah (faith) is much higher than da'as (knowledge). It saddens me to see people knocking it, but i can only pray for a brighter future for am yisroel. As for all those followers of the "leaders" of these sects of Breslov, i beg you to get a direct quote from any one of them and their take on the petek. I would be surprised if they would be so bold as to deny a mesora (tradition) that dates much earlier than their living years. Either way, all those who are truly interested (as A.M. said) should seek truth with all their might, and beg Hashem for just one true word...for this alone is a great accomplishment. and either way, it certainly doesn't hurt to say it na nach nachma nachman meuman :)
SHAME ON ANY OF YOU TO SPEAK LIKE THAT OF SUCH A TZADDIK LIKE RAV ISRAEL BER ODESSER!! NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THERE'S SO MANY PROVES HAVE IT CAN'T BE A CHILDISH PRANK. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SPEAK ABOUT EITHER HIM OR HIS FOLLOWERS LIKE THAT! HE WAS THE MOST BRESLEVER CHASSID IN THIS GENERATION NO ONE HAD MORE THAN HE DID FOR RABBEINU HAKADOSH! NONE OF YOU PEOPLE WHO SPEAK BAD ABOUT HIM HAVE THE SLIGHTEST CLUE ON WHO RAV ISRAEL WAS... ALL OF YOU HAVE TO DO A BIG TESHUVA AND ASK MECHILA FOR SPEAKING AND THINKING SUCH THINGS
G-d rules with the Tzadik... after that anarchy rules. Unless you would like to be a slave to a half tzadik. The kind that means well but has his own issues to deal with like love of money and honor. Anarchy is good. Anarchy is very organized. Anarchy means everyone working together as friends. I don't think that you should be so concerned with Gedolim, Saba had the true tradition of Breslov. Saba got the letter. Na Nach is here to stay. We are getting more and more organized and are prepared to do whatever it takes to spread the books of Rebbe Nahman...and of Saba. "Spreading the books of Rebbe Nachman is the Holy of Holies" -R' Itzchak Breiter (the seven pillars) These guys publishing these books are the future Priests of Hashem in the coming Redemption. There is great honor in store for those that help a Na Nach in any way. Those that oppose the Petek are in grave danger for their souls and their eternal good might be lost unless they do Tshuvah. Rebbe Nachman can help them if they were simple enough to follow his advice. Sadly they choose money (gedolim) and honor. I thank G-d every day that I have nothing to do with these sick perverted people who so arrogantly oppose the Petek. And I pray that all you people who follow these opposers look very deeply into your soul and make your choice, for you will account before the Throne of Glory for calling these people "Rabbi's". "The time of the Final Redemption is very near"- Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman.
These guys publishing these books are the future Priests of Hashem in the coming Redemption. There is great honor in store for those that help a Na Nach in any way. Those that oppose the Petek are in grave danger for their souls and their eternal good might be lost unless they do Tshuvah.
Sounds like a christian slogan - "believe in Yoshka the savior or be damned". The danger is the profanation of Breslov name, coming from such an attitude amongst Nanachniks.
christian attitude:
Boring responce, Common trash that I constantly hear from you pathetic opposers. I wrote an article about this subject.called "Na Nach and Chritianity"
:http://www.blogger.com/email-post.g?blogID=32243330&postID=6088530003227738787
Your form of Jewishness is to mock the Holy Saba (his merit should protect us) and say that he does not know the difference between a miracle and a practical joke. His whole holy life was based on this miracle.
So sad, so sad that you have so little faith in the Tzadik that he is alive in heaven and interacting on earth with his holy students. You have a problem with me calling the least of Breslovers higher then the gedolai Ha Dor, Then you have a problem with Rebbe Nachman... and yes. woe to you. I would not trade one single chant of Na Nach for all your money, power or whatever else you think is so important that makes you oppose the miracle of the Petek. Saba said those that mock and belittle the Petek have no portion in holiness. That's Na Nach. Those who opposed Saba died terrible deaths. Be careful Dude. G-d Loves Saba and is very picky about the honor of his holy servants. I say this in love. Be careful. You have no idea what you are dealing with when you oppose the Petek. Better to keep quite and out of the way. Saba said "The Redemption is coming soon and it is centered around the miracle of the Petek." The opposers are going to look pretty stupid when the Moshiac accepts the Petek.
saba-noon:christian attitude:
Boring responce, Common trash that I constantly hear from you pathetic opposers. I wrote an article about this subject.called "Na Nach and Chritianity"
From you words filled with gayva and despise, it makes sense to conclude that there is no point in reading these articles at all. Doesn't worth the time.
I see no point in further discussions with you. So don't waste your time either please.
Not pride, Humility that I accept the simple meaning of the simple words of a holy Tzadik as true, is not pride it is humility. Despise, yes I despise falsehood, and needless sophistication, that try to jail the unknowing masses to the point of not even recognizing a miracle in their face when G-d does one, I despise lies, not you or any creature on this earth. I make it a point of loving everyone and everything especially truth. Not reading the article just shows that you have no interest in truth, ignorance is not bliss. I'm not interested in further discussions with you either, Like I said it is better to just keep quite, and out of the way rather then oppose the Petek.
Interestingly, most radical anarchists who speak about this petek can't stand any kind of authority, and are very aggressively against "chaverim" in Breslov, who have some real mesorah. This just shows how this whole thing isn't leshem shamaim at all, because it brings people to hatred, absence of emunas chachomim (about high importance of which Rebe speaks) and a whole bunch other negative things. This is itself shows, that "good" coming out of a bad thing isn't really good.
saba-noon: While I see no point in discussions with you or the kind, there is a point not to "be quiet" about problems in Nanach. Otherwise someone can be trapped in these problems. And if you don't like people not being quite - you'll have to get used to it.
to anonymous: The following is a list of names of Rabbi's that form the tradition that Saba (R' Odesser) received. Rebbe Nachman's main student was R' Noson. who published all the major books of R' Nachman. In R' Noson's house lived R' Moshe Breslover, who served R' Noson. note: Rebbe Nachman says that the servant of the teacher is the true receiver of the teacher's light. R' Moshe Breslover taught R" Israel Karduner. (One of the 36 hidden Tzadikim) R' Israel Karduner was the teacher of R' Odesser (The Saba). Saba received a letter from R' Nachman miraculously. Saba believed this with all of his heart mind and soul. Saba in turn said that one does not "need" a living teacher.. Rather only the books of R' Nachman, to pray to G-d and friends to talk to about these things. Saba basically said that all the "leaders" of Breslov were false and that he was the only true leader of Breslov. Saba was a very, very, happy man his whole life who laughed a lot. Saba has the mesoret emeti (the true tradition of Breslov). What these other guys claim is weak in comparison. When they oppose the Petek they disqualify themselves as leaders. I have nothing against leaders as long as they are true. Those that oppose the Petek are liars. This is what Saba says. Hatred for lies is good. One should hate lies not the liars. I have no hatred for anyone. Only for the lies they speak.
Saba in turn said that one does not "need" a living teacher..
If he did, it was his private idea, not grounded anywhere in Breslov, since great teachers of Breslover chasidus of earlier generations (Reb Noson and Reb Nachman Tcheriner ztz"l for example) clearly said that one can need a living teacher.
Saba basically said that all the "leaders" of Breslov were false and that he was the only true leader of Breslov.
Firstly I doubt that he ever said anything like this. This is what Nanachers are trying to put in his mouth. And even if he did, so what? It is simply false, and there were other great teachers and leaders in Breslov.
There are no "problems" in Na Nach. Only misunderstandings from the outsiders and the pride of those that oppose. I am aware of all that they say against Na Nach and it is all either ignorant or lies. And if one is interested in the truth they will Pray to G-d to guide them, for there is no way to understand a miracle logically, and these so called "problems" are mainly a reflection of a lack of simple faith. That is the problem. Rebbe Nachman regarded simple faith, without any sophistication as the main point of Judaism. and all these so called "leaders" of Breslov would believe some non-Breslover prankster rather then one of their own brothers. Sad, yes, but everyone has free choice. Those that believe in that prankster will have to spend their time in Gan Eden (or wherever he might be) with him while those that believe in the Miracle of the Petek will be laughing with Saba (I assure you that he is in Gan Eden). The choice is yours. One has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Opposing Na Nach will not bring you happiness. Sincere questioning will bring you understanding and true understanding will bring you healing. We all need healing. All of us. (some of us more then others).
Dear anonymous.
I have never read the words one "needs a living teacher" anywhere in the traditional texts of Breslov. I would be delighted to see such a thing.
Everything that Saba said was firmly based in Breslov tradition. Saba is Breslov Tradition. To have Rebbe's or not to have Rebbe's is a very old argument in Breslov from the very begining. Saba says Your friend is your teacher, your Rebbe is Rebbe Nachman alone. A common misconception about Na Nach is that we don't believe in leaders. We do, If they are true. (Anarchy does not mean "no leaders" that would be Chaos.)
you said:
"Firstly I doubt that he ever said anything like this. This is what Nanachers are trying to put in his mouth. And even if he did, so what? It is simply false, and there were other great teachers and leaders in Breslov."
Put it together, real simple, Saba clearly said that the entire Final Redemption centers around the Miracle of the Petek. That all the nations of the world will join hands and say "Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman." That everyone will buy a copy of the Petek and that every printing house in the world will be printing it. He said many many things like this many many times. Yet none of the "Gedolim" of Breslov accept the reality of the Miracle. But they all have a lot of money and honor. Interesting isn't it? and Yes there were many great and true leaders in Breslov. Today they are all Na Nach.(all of them accept no honor and have no money) Pathetic generation that it is, Hashem, Please in the merit of all the True Tzadikim have mercy on us all and bring us to the Truth of the Truth, please.
It is not my job to try to convince you that Saba is True. That is your choice to believe alone. My job is simply to inform you of the facts.
I have never read the words one "needs a living teacher" anywhere in the traditional texts of Breslov. I would be delighted to see such a thing.
Learn through the whole Parparos leChochmo, on Likutey Moharan I:61 (slowly), and especially pay attention there to #11. Tcheriner Rov explains there, that one needs living teachers, even though one can learn from sforim on his own if he CAN'T FIND one, and in such case one has to do it in a certain way, and not "do as you please".
We can continue after you'll do it.
Put it together, real simple, Saba clearly said that the entire Final Redemption centers around the Miracle of the Petek. That all the nations of the world will join hands and say "Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman." That everyone will buy a copy of the Petek and that every printing house in the world will be printing it. He said many many things like this many many times.
Irrelevant to the subject above. Bring a quote from him, where he says that there is no true Breslover leaders except himself, or quit telling that he said so.
He says in a video when they asked him when will Moshiac come He said "Tell people to stop listening to the Rabbi's, when people stop listening to the Rabbi's then Moshiac will come" You sound to me like a person that still this is not good enough and that's fair. What I said is what Saba "basically said." I did not say that he said those words exactly. But as every serious learner knows that the truth of the Rabbi's teaching is found primarily in the hints and not in his words explicity. Rebbi Nachman for instance never openly said "I am the tzadik HaDor" or "I am the Tzadik Emes." Yet for those who learn seriously, meaning with a sincere desire for truth and to purify themselves of all sin, know that is exactly what Rebbe Nachman meant. I am not interested in intellectual games. The Truth of Saba is very simple and very clear. I don't know how much I am allowed to tell you for I don't know even if you are Na Nach or not. He says some very serious things on tape about this subject, it is shocking. But if you are sincerely seeking you will see in many places all over "Israel Saba" (the book in english) it is implied and understood by all the followers of Saba. anyway I will compile some of the quotes because it needs to be done. Thanks You gave me another job to do.
to the other anonymous.
I can't find it. I have Parapot Lechockmah here in front of me. I am too busy to read this whole lesson right now on LM 1 61. In my edition there is no #11. which edition do you have? On what page is it?
I, for one, always make a point of ignoring those who write anything in the form of:
"_______ basically said that all the "leaders" of _______ were false and that he was the only true leader of ______."
Such as:
"Saba basically said that all the "leaders" of Breslov were false and that he was the only true leader of Breslov."
- Avi Bloomenstiel
@saba-noon,
The only thing I don't understand is how you said at once that you want to understand the simple meaning of the words of tzaddikim, and that there's more in the 'hints' of the tzaddikim than in what they actually say..
that sounds like a contradiction to
me?
to Yitz,
Hello, thanks for reading and posting. All the words of Rebbe Nachman are to be understood in their simple meaning, and we should strive to fulfill the simple meaning. Like when The Rebbe said "Go to the field and speak to Hashem like a friend" He meant that simply and literally. At the same time the words of the Rebbe are very very deep and each word contains many deeper secrets that through honest learning prayer and discussion with true friends we can merit to understand hints and deeper levels and so find true personal advice from these words for our own personal life. But never do the deeper meanings of the words ever contradict the simple meaning. So when the Rebbe said "Go to the fields and talk to G-d" he literally meant "field" and "talk" etc. though truth is "one" there are always higher and higher levels of truth and we must always strive to higher and higher perceptions of truth. There is a soul connected to the books and there are things that only someone who truly loves Rebbe Nachman and cries to G-d can ever understand and these things cannot be explained to another it is a spiritual intimate experience. Rebbe Nachman teaches about this experience that one can have with him. When Saba said that he got the letter from heaven he meant that literally and simply. But yes, there are implications to this truth and deeper understandings that were hinted to.(and many explicitly said) First except the simple meaning of the words with complete faith and then, holding on to that truth search deeper and deeper in learning and prayer and application and many hints and secrets open up. This is not meant to be a philosophical, academic debate. But my wisdom in these matters are all drawn from the Words of Rebbe Nachman. I really encourage everyone to read the books of Breslov and of Saba themselves and pray, and discuss with friends, New worlds open up, wonderous healing, and all true and lasting good. Saba said in Israel Saba "No Rabbi's, only the books of Rebbe Nachman and friends" We don't want to say anything bad about any Jew, especially a Breslover. But "the emperor has no clothes" if you take my meaning. : )
dear sfas Ha-nachal,
I didn't think that I said anything that you should ignore, sounds like you are trying to sound smart, the smartest guy is not always right as is known, to those that are versed in the teachings of Breslov. These are serious issues of the soul, Judaism today and the upcoming Final and Ultimate Redemption and they all need to be taken very seriously.
Saba, understandably didn't say certain things explicitly, but he was a person that lived very recently and many who were very close to him and lived with him and served and learned with him are alive today and some of them are my good friends and believe me or not Saba defenatly said some very nasty things about many of these "Rabbi's".Some of them by name. It goes on record as being said in front of groups of friends. Though this is very important, it is not the main and crucial point for everyone to hear.
What is a person to do?
Though also I understand that many people are in many different "places" in their quest for truth and what seems obvious to one is still a confusing issue to another. If one is holding at a level that they feel that they can't know who a true Rabbi is or who a false one is then they should believe in them all. (Likutey Halachol Shabbos 5 last section.) HOWEVER one should not decieve themselves and think that all Rabbi's (Breslov or not) really are true, there are false leaders, and they kill (the mind,body and soul) each individual must make it a point to constantly pray and seek out a true leader and examine very carefully exactly where their Torah is coming from. there is such thing as Jewish Demon scholars(Lik. Moh. 28) and all their Torah, though it is wonderfully and eloquently spoken with mashels and such will not bring a person to truth at all, rather the opposite it will take them away from the truth. for it is possible that one be a brilliant scholar of Torah and a completely evil person. (see Likutey Moharon 1 lesson 31:14) so during this transitory period when one does not know who the true tzadik is, they should believe in them all and pray and scream from their hearts to Hashem for mercy to clarify this matter. Even if they found the true Tzadik they should still continually pray and cry to Hashem to find the Tzadik for it is possible that one be by the Tzadik and not see and feel the Tzadik's true light.
How sane was Rav Odesser in his later years, when he said those radical things?
Also note, that he didn't really started any of this Nanach craziness himself, and this is the invention of several individuals who used him for their own purposes.
I can't find it. I have Parapot Lechockmah here in front of me. I am too busy to read this whole lesson right now on LM 1 61. In my edition there is no #11. which edition do you have? On what page is it?
saba-noon: I'm using "Toras Hanetzach" edition (new print), which has numbering inside corresponding to Likutey Moharan.
In the old edition numbers sometimes are missing. If you are using the old one, it is on page Lamed-Dalet (starting from the end of the first column - "U-mikol hamevuer..." and further.
My fellow jews, I have been following your discussion. Please consider the following parable:
The Parable of Yahudosa ben Qardun
The history of Yahudosa ben Qardun is preserved in an anonymous collection of obscure midrashim on the Tanach. He lived in the First Temple period, but all other details are unknown.
The Philistines were once again strengthened,and were threatening the Israelites with the support of the Egyptians and Edomites. The Children of Israel were tired of war and caught in the snare of avoda zara, which was accompanied by promiscuity and a love for money.
But at the same time there was peace, or so it seemed, except for the occasional border clashes. No one wanted to speak out against the weakening of the peoples' faith and the danger that was posed by the growing power of Israel's enemies.
The King and his advisors advocated a policy of peace and conciliation to the Philistines and their allies. The people who had fallen into avoda zara praised the King for his policies for it gave them greater opportunity to build relationships for trade, intermarriage and idolatry.
The sages of this time were content as well. They were given large stipends from the King and awarded great honor in the eyes of the people. And though it was a direct violation of the words of the Torah, they did not protest when the King entered into a treaty with the Philistines. They justified this to themselves saying, “Why should I speak if no one will listen to me?” “Now is not the time.” “If I speak out, I will be killed, and my people need me.”
The King declared a time of peace and in his speeches he said: “Shalom is the name of God, and there is no greater vessel for blessing than peace.” The sages nodded in agreement and the people were pleased.
And so the idolatry continued to spread amongst the people...and the danger from abroad grew.
At this time there lived a young man named Yahudosa ben Qardun. Yahudosa lived far from the city and its politics. He was a student of the prophets and lived with his small circle of students serving Hashem with prayer, meditation and fasting. He was a humble, young man and despite his great learning made himself appear simple to those around him.
One night after a long period of seclusion and fasting, Yahudosa awoke in his cave. He heard a motion and thought someone was stealing from his sacks. It was dark so he lit a lamp but saw nothing. He then rose for his midnight prayers.
Before dawn he went to his sack to put on his tallit and tefilin. He picked up his tallit and as he unfolded it a piece of parchment fell out. He was surprised because he did not leave this parchment with his things. He picked up the parchment and written upon it was the phrase “David Melek Israel, Chai V'Qyam” and some other letters that seemed to be secret names of angels.
“Where did this come from? Did someone enter my cave last night and put this into my tallit sack? But who? I am here all alone and no one knows where I am? Was it an angel?”
Yahudosa looked at the parchment and wondered what it could mean. He read it over and over again and contemplated each of the Hebrew letters in the secret name, and then suddenly a song entered his heart and he began to sing and to dance. In these words he received a prophetic vision of the redemption and the revelation of God's presence. His entire body was filled with inexplicable joy like he had never felt in his life. He began to laugh out loud. He danced and danced until past sundown and into the night.
He returned back to his village and to his fellow students and friends. He wanted to tell them what had happened but he knew that they would not believe him. “Yahudosa received a parchment from an angel? God was doing miracles for him? How ridiculous!”
They would think he was crazy. And anyway, how could he even communicate the vision that he was given. He meditated upon this and concluded that there was no way to speak of these things. The only thing he could do was sing these words and share his happiness and pray that this prophecy would be communicated.
And so he did. He went about his days singing and dancing and laughing with joy: “David Melek Israel, Chai V'Qyam”!! As he continued to sing this song his joy continually increased. People enjoyed it at first but they they began to laugh and make fun of him. They said that he had spent too much time in a cave and had gone mad. This did not bother Yahudosa and he continued to share his song and his joy and laughter with the children and young people who loved him. He saw that the adults were more concerned about their honor and their money, and were not free in their soul like the children and young people to be joyful. He explained to his community that Moshe Our Teacher taught that we must serve God with joy, and that this was the best protection against all harm and would bring us favor in the the eyes of God. Some understood and began to sing his song and follow in his ways.
The King and his advisors began to fear the song. They saw it as a threat to their policies. “Yahudosa is inciting the people against the King and his policies of peace. He is arousing them to the violent ways of war in the name of David ben Yishai.” And so the King and his advisors plotted to kill Yahudosa. They made several attempts but each time they failed. One time they sent their assassin out and he killed another man in the village name Yahudosa, and this caused a great uproar. It seemed that Yahudosa was indeed protected by angels and they began to fear him.
Yahudosa did not fear them at all, and he spoke out directly against the King's policies and the sages that supported him. “The King is a servant of God and he must be given his proper honor. But when his policies go against the Holy Torah of Hashem, we cannot sit quiet. The sages are cowards, concerned only about their honor and money, and our people have fallen into the pit of idolatry. These are simple words of truth. We must not fear any man, only God Himself.”
The sages did not sit by idly but attacked Yahudosa in return calling him a madman and a fool. “Is Yahudosa a sage or a dyan? Is he a son of kings or sages? He is nobody, Who is he but a simple, villiage fool who thinks himself a prophet? And what is his prophecy? The song and dance of a clown for children. He is not to be taken seriously.”
Yahudosa did not care. He continued to sing and to dance and to laugh, and he continued to speak the truth. The children and youth listened and they received the light of his prophecy. They knew in their hearts that he was defending the Torah and the Will of God. The young people were not fooled by images of money and honor. They were pure and they loved truth. The King and the sages could call Yahudosa was a fool and a false prophet, but they knew better. These children grew to become adults and understood that the true prophet is one who stands up for truth, especially when an entire generation is silent. In the time of darkness the true prophet carries the torch of the Torah and its light of joy and purity. Yahudosa passed away but his song was sung louder and louder and it eventually awakened the people of Israel to their mission to serve Hashem, smash the idols of idolatry and defend themselves against their enemies.
@saba-noon,
What about what Rebbe Nachman says about Tzaddikim fighting with one another as a means to protect them from divine prosecution?
(this is the argument used to explain away the conflict between Rebbe Nachman and the Shpoler Zaide, right?)
How do you know that all of Saba's (alleged) words deriding the other Gedolim of Breslov wasn't merely an act of kindness he was doing in order to protect and help them?
(I know the Komarna Rebbe says explicitly (in Notzer Hesed) that he told his Chassidim that they should be sure to know whenever they heard him saying something negative about someone else it was for spiritual reasons and was not the truth.)
Givald, Givald, Givald. The over all message of all the comments seem to favor Nanach. Judging from the spelling errors, typos, and grammar, it seems that most of the misnagdim don't even bother to read over what they wrote, its not important enough for them! Also it's interesting that it's all taking place here on a site that many people brand as sheker, but I don't want to get into name calling, but I would like to mention that I met with DS at a time when I was very proficient in most of Rabbainu's teachings and yet still did not recognize the importance of going all the way and becoming exclusively Rabbainu's. Open minded I was, even more I was searching to find truthful conviction in anything that would bring me closer to G-d and the path of the true and righteous. The only one that did this for me was the Saba. DS and all the other mainstream or Breslov sub leaders, although I heard them out and read their stuff, and even gained from them, did not present me with the truth of the supremacy of Rabbi Nachman and the need to completely follow him.
That said (in as short as possible) I would like to address some points mentioned.
a. although I am in almost complete agreement to all of Saba Noons comments I would like to assert that there are definite places in Rabbainus Tora that speak of the importance of learning from a living Tzadik (I find it very strange that the guy he's arguing has to resort to PLC?!! off hand I can think of at least a few definite quotes from Rabbainu). The thing is that even the Rabbis that Rabbi Nachman extolled, such as the Berdichiver were not able to help Rabbi Nusun sufficiently, and after Rabbi Nachmans passing, Rabbi Nussun visited many of the leading Rabbi's until he came to the conclusion that what he understood from Rabbi Nachman vastly surpassed anything they had to offer. Thus Rabbi Nussun, who did not see himself fit to be considered a Leader, did his utmost to give over to Jewry what he had received from Rabbi Nussun, and thus the tradition in Breslov was established that there would be no Leader after Rabbi Nachman.
If you look in the book Yimay Shmuel he tells about a hierarchy of different groups in Uman, Shimshon Barsky OB"M was leader of one. Do your research on him, try to find one glimmer or ounce of the honor, power, money etc. that is associated with being a leader. He simply was like an older brother or friend, he knew more than them and was more inclined to the Service of G-d so he shared his time in brotherhood with those that appreciated it. All of Breslover Chasidim were branded as Toyte Chasidim - Chasidim of a Dead One.
Breslovers were always challenged by this, why they did not have a living leader, but whether or not they had a good answer they were adherent to this holy way - until this generation. There are now about 6 figures that popped up proclaiming themselves as rabbis like all the other sects of chasidim. People are kissing their hands, paying exorbitant amounts of money for the privelege of seeing them, and conducting themselves like goyish nobility.
R' Avrohom Br'Nachman, who the Saba testified on him to be a man of truth (even still he made it clear - saying explicitly that the relationship that he, the Saba, had with R' Yisroel Karduner would not have been possible even with R' Avrohom) and was one of the most esteemed Breslover Chasidim avoided all honor and power like the plague, he dressed in torn clothing, and he slept on a bench of the synagogue. R' Avrohom authored a commentary to LM called Biur Halikutim, in the Meshech Hanachal publication they have a little biography of R' Avrohom, I think it's on page 39 that they print the following conversation that someone asked the famous question to R' Avrohom, what are all the Tefilos, prayers, in Likutay Tefilos, to find a living tzadik (and many of these Tefilos are quite clear that they were written and prayed by R' Nussun after the passing of Rabbainu), isn't the way of Breslov not to have a living Rebbe? To which R' Avrohom replied, that it is a prayer for 2 things, one to reveal the Mushiach [Rabbainu said, 'from me till Mushiach there will not be a novelty', the Breslov understanding of this deebur is that there will be no leader, not just a novelty, for if there is no novelty anyone with sense will have the sense to stick with Rabbainu], and b. to find the hidden tzadikim who are in the know of the ways of Rabbainu, the biography continues to say that R' Avrohomm was very active in searching out the hidden tzadikim.
Saba himself considered himself to be a talmid - disciple - of one of the hidden tzadikim - R' Yisroel Karduner. Saba makes it clear that the relationship he had with R' Yisroel was devoid of any notion of putting him up on a pedestal, they had one sole intention, to light up the word of Rabbainu in their quest for G-d.
Rabbainu left over his teachings, anyone who is doing his maximum to fulfill them, will at some point need someone to show him how to personalize them even more, and when the person is ready, his prayers to G-d will be answered and G-d will provide him with a living Rabbi. But there is no allowance for anyone seeking a Rabbi, to be like the goyim, or the Jews conducting themselves like goyim (see the tora from Rabbainu about מלכה ושריה בגוים אין תורה). Halacha can be asked to someone that claims he knows, and if one is looking for a logical solution to some problem he is facing, certainly he should consult with someone that has the mental acumen to figure out the solution, but advice, that Rabbainu says a person can only get from a real tzadik, and even when it comes from Rabbainu himself the person still has to decide if it is the ultimate truth for himself – even when it's from Rabbainu.
The Vilna Gaon did not let his disciples practice the kavanos of the Arizal explaining to them that for hundreds of years, since the time of the Bais Yosef, even a person channeling holiness from heaven would not receive a completely holy channel. Those of us who merited to believe in the Holiness of the Baal Shem Tov know that the Besht was able to channel the divine in complete holiness, as were even his students students students, as we learned in Chok Breslov today. Even true tzadikim like R' Tzvi Ziditchov did not completely trust their holiness, worrying that they were only operating in Klipas Noga, and to to think that there are clowns nowadays calling themselves Breslov and trying to win peoples approval and votes (B. of Shin Bais, has his guys going around convincing people to vote?! Breslovers didn't vote, and if they went around speaking to people it was about Rabbainu!), are these guys so sure that they are so pure?!
Most, if not all of what I have written here has already been explained at our nanach site (see for example Monday, June 30, 08 Nanach: The Pillar Of Royalty), but what are the chances of someone so committed to find the truth, so thank G-d for patience and strength to write things over and over. Saba Noon is especially impressive at this.
The topic of anarchy, has already been discussed at length at the nanach site, BH"Y I'm going to post another piece very soon. It is pretty clear as it is, and as explained in the comments by Saba Noon that having leaders does not mean that one loses self government. G-d created man in his image, that is with the ability to choose to do whatever he wants. The main tzadik Rabbi Nachman, and his Nanach cult, follow the way of G-d, they do not impose government or subjugation, rather they profess that each Nanach build his or her own identity, character, and personality, ultimately everyone is responsible for themselves! This is the way of G-d, it is the way of Judiasm as can be seen all over Tanach and chazal, it is the way of Nanach!!!
One of the last comments (yitz..) asked how do we know that we should bash the rabbis, maybe the Saba's war against them was the aspect of the fights between tzadikim which one definitely should not get involved in. For one, we have on video someone asking the Saba straight up this very question! Saba says to publicize it so that everyone should know, he said this on video!
Now maybe you'll say that even still, how do we know, maybe that itself is part of the fight. In that case you should review everything discussed here and you'll see that that is the simple truth, the rabbis are completely not called for, they are misleading Israel (not a new concept either in Judiasm, for anyone familiar with the Prophets and the fake prophets).
Another point, A Yid wrote something about if R' Shternhaltzer would have had a stronger position there would be no carrying on like the present. This is another point we have discussed at great length elsewhere. In order for me to address it let me say that there are basicly 3 main tracts of Mesorah (I would say in Breslov but let it be clear what Rabbainu said that everyone is going to be Breslov, thus this is Mesora of Judiasm) from Rabbi Nachman. The first step is Rabbi Nussun from whom it splits. 1. as printed in almost all the Breslov books today, Moshe Breslover, to R' Yisroel Karduner, to the Saba. 2. Rabbi Nachman of Tulchin, 3 years after his death his son writes that he now understands and accepts that his father was the strongest reciever from Rabbi Nussun, R' Avrohom impacted many Breslovers including Rabbi Bender (who was a member of one of the lower groups in Uman mentioned in Yimay Shmuel), most of the so called Breslover Rabbi's today can be traced to him. He started kicking people out of Breslov when they showed desire to be Rabbis or when they attracted 'crazy' people to Breslov. The 3rd, and with all due respect the weakest being that of R' Shternhaltzer, a grandson of R' Nussun, the mesora of the original American Breslovers, such as Rabbi Rosenfeld and his student Arye Kaplan, come from him. This 3rd Mesora is obviously the weakest. Its followers made many concessions to society that are blatantly against Rabbi Nachmans way, e.g. they cut their beards!
That being said, I think A Yid is in some ways right and in some ways wrong about this point. It is true that if R' Shterhaltzer would have had more influence there would have been more compromises and concessions, Breslovers would be, to a great degree, slaves to society like everyone else, but ultimately the truth stands, so even if the American Mesora would have also had an exclusive position in Israel, ultimately Rabbainu's true followers would have arisen, and ultimately everyone will be free , ultimately everyone will be Nanach!
Now to my 'Brother Na Nach' the medrash you quote is completely awesome, I really appreciated it when you put it up on our Nanach site. The only problem with it is that many people, even Nanach, came away thinking it is a mushal – parable - of your own. Can you post, here and there, exactly where this medrash can be found, and make it clear that this is a medrash and not a product of your own.
The claims that the Saba was senile at the end of his life is also a claim against R' Moshe Fienstein who met with the Saba then and testifies explicitly that he was inspired by the Petek. R' Moshe also testifies that Saba was very proficient in Kabala, something R' Moshe almost never mentioned let alone approbate!
The bottom line about accepting the validity and the truth of the Petek is, that anyone who objectively reads or hears it's story will have no doubt of it's truth. The people that come up with crazy alternative explanations which require more faith than the simple straightforward truth, this isn't due to lack of proof, it is only because they are not able to face the responsibility that comes along with believing in the Petek. The proofs are there, but they can not accept it because not only are they willing to say they were wrong, they are unable to accept and honor the message of the Petek, that each and every one of us must stand up to the entire world, just like our forefather Avrohom, and show the whole world the true way of G-d, the ways of the Nanach!
(I find it very strange that the guy he's arguing has to resort to PLC?!! off hand I can think of at least a few definite quotes from Rabbainu).
That's to disable any notion of twisting the subject around, since Parporos totally clearly speaks about this issue even after histalkus of Rabeinu.
Thus Rabbi Nussun, who did not see himself fit to be considered a Leader, did his utmost to give over to Jewry what he had received from Rabbi Nussun, and thus the tradition in Breslov was established that there would be no Leader after Rabbi Nachman.
Totally invalid, however anarchists would like to say so obviously. There is a difference between the Rebbe, and a leader (manhig). Look in the same Parporos where he speaks about manhigim. Reb Noson himself was the leader of Breslover chasdim, while he was not in the position of the Rebbe. Rebbe specifically transferred certain functions to his talmidim, which are fullfilled usually by the Rebbe himslef such as tikuney neshomos, pidyonos and similar. So we see that he didn't mean that there will be no more leaders in Breslov at all (but there are no other Rebbes with all that).
Look here for more details:
http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2006/10/one-cant-be-chassid-without-rebbe.html
___The 3rd, and with all due respect the weakest being that of R' Shternhaltzer, a grandson of R' Nussun,___
This is total foolishness, since this mesoyro is historically the strongest, because Reb Arvohom Shternhartz had such an extensive shimush chachomim and received the inner mesoyro of Breslover Chasidus to such extent, that it was incomparable to anyone else. He learned from Reb Nachman Tcheriner, Reb Berenyu (Rebbe's grandson), and multiple other talmidim of Reb Noson! No one else in his generation could claim such mesoryro receiving.
Learn your homework before making false and baseless statements.
This is very clearly seen in Meron issue for example. When opponents of Reb Avrohom (who are considered to have mesoyro too) claimed that one shouldn't go to Meron for Roysh haShone, Reb Avrohom stood on his view that one should. And later it was found out, that talmidim of Reb Noson wrote exactly so in their letters (about going to Meron).
the mesora of the original American Breslovers, such as Rabbi Rosenfeld and his student Arye Kaplan, come from him.
Rather they learned from him, but they didn't receive his mesoyro fully, and they din't shave because of any mesoyro at all.
To be his real talmid muvhak was considered only Reb Gedalya Kenig ztz"l who really received his mesoyro and founded the Kiryas Breslev in Tfas. His talmidim today represent this mesoyro. There were other great talmidim of Reb Avrohom Shternhartz though, for example Reb Shmuel Shapiro and Reb Shmuel Horovitz, but Reb Gedalya was the one who continued and passed on Reb Avrohom's mesoyro.
ultimately Rabbainu's true followers would have arisen, and ultimately everyone will be free , ultimately everyone will be Nanach!
Sounds again like a christian slogan, that proclaims to turn everyone in their "only truth". It becomes boring already and raises the question whether there is any point in discussions with Nanachniks at all, if they all sound the same.
My dear bahaltener (scary name for a Breslover, interesting enough it contains the first letters of Breslov and the first letters of Nachman and what's left is alte or old?).
Why do you accuse me of falsehood, baseless, and having to do my homework, it seems to me that that is exactly what you are guilty of. Are you not familiar with what R' Avrohom Bre Nachman writes in Kochvay Or that his father was by far the strongest reciever from R' Nussun. You seem to disagree with R' Avrohom. Now to be fair and honest, my insinuation was that I also don't agree completely with R' Avrohom, because I have a tradition from Saba that R' Yisroel Karduner was much greater than R' Avrohom, so that gives me the license to side with R' Yisroel Karduner over R' Avrohom. But what is your license to go against one of the most saintly Breslovers.
Your claim that R' Rosenfeld and R' Arye Kaplan OB"M are not to be considered proper links to R' Shternhaltzer is in itself problematic. Both of these holy Jews were huge servants of G-d of enormous genious. The very fact that they are associated as learning from R' Shternhaltzer and spreading the teachings of R' Nachman, yet spreading a different version than they had heard from R' Shternhaltzer, raises the question, what took place. Why weren't these great men able to communicate properly and unite in the service of G-d. And although I admit that this is not a question that can definitely prove anything, it does the job to present my challenge that R' Shternhaltzers mesorah was not as clear and strong as the other two.
About there not being a Rebbe but their could be a leader, I'm not sure if your trying to play semantics or just trying to start up. Both Saba Noon and myself made it clear that there could be leadership, and no one is doubting that Rabbi Nussun was a leader, what exactly this type of leadership is was also discussed, so what are you harping on, what's disturbing you?
What surprises me is that you didn't pick up on my typo, that I wrote Nussun instead of Nachman!
What I do have to do homework on, is whether this GK that you mention as having the true mesora, if he's the K that the Saba said must die before the world will be ready to except the Petek.
Hope you don't take any of this personal, because I do in a way, because this is my life and the life of all the worlds.
Also since when does Ch. have a monopoly on truth, that we can not reiterate, as it is in Tanach and in Chazal, that the Truth will stand, do you have a problem with them as well?
Here's something I've tried before and it works amazing, before you continue argueing, say one time, properly, Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman! Try it!
NNNNM!
And although I admit that this is not a question that can definitely prove anything, it does the job to present my challenge that R' Shternhaltzers mesorah was not as clear and strong as the other two.
Your challenge is based on lacking knowledge about who Reb Avrohom Shternhartz was, and who his talmidim were. Learn about it more first, and afterward speak about who received what.
because I do in a way, because this is my life
Really, I'm not interested in further discussions in this case, since you prefer such life to any other reasoning, and this leads me more and more to thinks that this applies to all Nanachniks in general (i.e. pointlessness of arguments and discussions, since they don't hear any logical reasoning anyhow).
What I do have to do homework on, is whether this GK that you mention as having the true mesora, if he's the K that the Saba said must die before the world will be ready to except the Petek.
The Rebbe sais, that one who lacks emunas chachomim will pervert even the written words of sfroim hakdoyshim. It seems this is exactly what plagues the Nanach. Have a speedy recovery my friend.
I had a discussion today with a nine year old child that made a lot of sense to me. If someone tells you of a miracle and you don't believe it, don't believe that it is a miracle. Then you are not supposed to say that you don't believe it. Your are supposed to listen and show that you believe it so to give strength to their faith. But the writer of this article does not think so. He thinks that it is good and proper to tell people that this miracle is not true and take away their simple faith. Besides, being a Na Nach, I happened to be involved with this very issue, very deeply, for many years now and lately I have been involved with this for 24 hours a day and 7 days a week, truth is I know the story of the petek and the details around what happened and all the details of the story that the other side says. It is clear that the writer of this article is unaware of the facts. and that this whole story of the other side is completely false, even just from the "facts" that they represent. The author of this article, I assume, is just ignorant of the facts. If he is aware of the facts he's just a bad person for bashing peoples faith and for covering up the facts. If there are true rabbi's he's not one of them. When someone reads this article above, do they receive any hope, any happiness any real direction in their life? Is it really an interesting article? No.It's just an advertisement for the "Gedolim". All he says is that the miracle is not real (as if I don't know a miracle when I see one). Because all the Gedolim say that this miracle is not real. As if I need a Rabbi to tell me that a miracle is real. I talk to G-d. I pray, a lot. I read Rebbi Nachman's book and really take it to heart. I see miracles all the time. Do I need a Rabbi to tell me that they are real? Do you talk to G-d? Do you see miracles? Do you ask your rabbi if they are real? All of you opposers on this site sound really like a bunch of old fogies honestly. There is no point in talking to us? That is OK with me. We'll talk to the youth. They are not interested in money and honor. they like miracles and Rebbi Nachman and truth and all that kind of stuff. I just talked to a young man for a couple of hours tonight, he was crying to me the whole time. I was talking to him about Rebbi Nachman, He was hurting a lot. The "Religious" world really really hurt him. Are you all not aware of what happened in that case in Monsey about the supposed respected "Rabbi" type guy that was selling traif meat to the entire community in monsey...for years people were eating traif meat. years...traif.. The other famous case of the fraud and the other case of this famous rabbi that was found with a secret illegal harem. This is just in Monsey what about what is happening in the Satmar case, is that not a great embarasment and this is just the tip of the iceberg, Everyone knows about all these things. Your making light of Na Nach because Saba bashed the Rabbi's. By the way Saba was not the only one during. And I also suppose that you think that the Ari'zal was way out of hand when he said that the majority of Rabbi's in his time were false. What do you have to lose that is so important to you? I have nothing to lose. So I believe, simply, and I see miracles. The only reason that I really wanted to talk to you opposers was to help you understand Na Nach because all of your kids are going to become Na Nach. And to place a little truth in this sea of lies. And if you tell your kids that Na Nach is false... that's OK too. All of your opposition only will make us stronger. We'll influence your kids and they are not so hung up with money and power and honor. I talk to a lot of them. In fact, so much so that you should probably pay me for the work that I do healing their minds from the terrible abuse that they all go through in their "religious" youth.(the money should go only to printing Rabbi Nachman's books) This is not just one case. hundreds of cases I have spoken to and they all very easily see that the majority of the religious world is a lie. I think that you see it to. But you have no place to turn. or maybe you are blinded with love of money or some other taivah. I speak to the youth about faith in G-d, prayer and Rebbi Nachman. They all never heard such things in their "Yeshivah's". They are all inspired. They are not corrupted. Yeshivah's today are about making "rabbi's" not about finding G-d, they would not pay someone to receite tehillim all day, or go to the forest and pray, you do that on your own time. Na Nach is the truth. It is simple truth and I'm not that kind of smart to understand these arguments that the miracle of the Petek is not true. I happen to know Naanaach and he is a true talmid Chochum. For real, they are actually very rare. The way you talk to him..?... "after you tell everyone to respect, respect the rabbi's"Anyway looks like the period of mercy is over you all seem to be separating yourselves from us. Not talking to us will only confuse you more and certainly never bring you any happiness as all you deniers of the miracle all can see in your hearts that you are not truly happy. You opposers are sounding really stupid, and not at all interested in truth. I was hoping to help you understand so that you will understand your kids better when they will all want to be only Na Nach in the future but since you are so attached to this guy that so ignorantly says that the Miracle of the Petek is not real, just like the evil people that Rebbi Nachman speaks about who try to explain miracles away with some type of "logical" explanation. Logic logic logic... It won't save you in the end, faith will. faith in the True Tzadik. So, the truth has been told, I will leave you all to your den of snakes and your loshon ha ra for now. But will be back again any time you dare talk bad about Na Nach or the Petek. I have a responcibility to Rebbe Nachman and to Saba, for I have personally received a great healing...really.. mind, body and soul. My life has changed for the much much better since I have become Na Nach and I am not the only one. Many many people I know are receiving miracles every day from saying Na Nach and believing in the miracle of the Petek. But I suppose these "Rabbi's" would say that these are not really miracles either. How much discussion can there be? Obviously Saba had the true messoret, Obviously the Petek is a Miracle. You say no. I can't really explain it. it is like a joke, you either get it or not. the same with miracles you either see them or explain them away everyone creates their own reality. You can live a Baal Shem Tov Fairy Tale life or have some kind of "normal" life. Full of all these terrible things that are going on about in the world. I live in a world of wonder and miracles and faith and dancing and happiness and I am not alone.
brilliant (as they say in England)!
maybe you can do the other site I posted about.
NNNNM!
I ask with with complete temimus and without wanting to provoke anything untoward, but would one of the commentators from the Na Nach contingency please offer point-by-point answers to these questions:
1) In the Na Nach velt, is there a generally accepted halachic authority that people go to? If so, then who is it? If not, then who do Na Nachs go to with she'elos?
2) How does the Na Nach approach understand the Rebbe's well known statement (I believe it is found in Sichos ha-Ran) : " Do whatever you want with my teachings, just don't touch one word of the Shulchan Aruch!"
Thanks-
Avi Bloomenstiel
Dear R' Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel, R' Yisroel Salanter said that their are no general principles in Yahudus so it is not possible to make a generalization of what the Nanach do, I can only speak for myself and some of my friends, when we don't know what the halacha is we ask someone, usually the closest person, if they know, great, if not we ask someone else. It has also been my personal experience to be astounded by the halacha some of my friend know.
Please be aware that their is a letter from the Ramchal to the Gadol Hador of his time Mahari Bassan - who challenged the Arizals and Ramchals position that people should not be studying Gemura and Halacha, rather they should be devoting all their time to learning things that really connect them to G-d. The Mahari Bassan challenged this with the question how will they know halacha. The Ramchal replies that thank G-d there is in the Beis Medrash so and so who is proficient in halacha, and there is myself, whatever they don't know they simply have to ask us. The Ramchal proceeds to write a very strong language - "but Heaven Forbid they should waste their time learning those things more than the minimum", obviously you should see this inside, as well as his other letters.
Nanach are very particular to fullfill Rabbainu's will that we should study two halachos every day. In fact since unfortunately, because of the galus I'm in, I have relied on the Rambam as brought down in the Chok, today I hope to buy a Shulchan Aruch and strengthen myself in this area.
As far as your second question about not changing halacha. This is a very complex issue which I have dealt with in my Kuntrass Habiur on Nanach - Yahadus. Before I go further I will state clearly that Nanach are strictly adherent to halacha, however they are often strictly adherent to follow the example of Rabbaine who had no, and taught that noone should practice any stringencies whatsoever. This is also a very complex issue which deserves it's own space. Returning to the issue of not changing the halacha, I would like to present you with a challenge to explain to me a few cases which Rabbainu did otherwise. E.g. Rabbainu quoted the Shulchan Aruch's edict of the necessary kavona- intention- one must have when he says the name of G-d, Rabbainu remarked, what's wrong with the simple understanding - G-d - and Rabbainu said this with tremendous fear. This is one example of a few, which for good reasons I do not want to pontificate, that you see that Rabbainu did not say that everything in Shulchan Aruch is set in steel. Obviously, as chasidim have said since day one, we worship Hashem not the Shulchan Aruch. It is also known that chasidim have always paskened with the Arizal over the Shulchan Aruch, there is a teshuva from the Baal Hatanya about this (the first one in the book). So to make a long story short, Nanach definitely are adherent to Shulchan Aruch, however when Nanach have a very valid reason, usually based on direct mesora or precedent seen by our holy tzadikim the Nanach will follow that.
There are some errors in your description of chassidic relationship to halacha and the arizal(in particular your citation the baal ha tanya's teshuva - even Lubavitch does't always pasken like the Ari Za"l) , but I think that you have nevertheless stated your position.
But what about the Rebbe stating "Do whatever you want with my teachings...?"
How does Na Nach explain their view of a "correct" masora in Breslov considering this statement by Rabbeinu Za"l?
To all: If you don't mind, let us please continue our discussion on this topic here
I have been very inspired and uplifted from rabbi nachmans teachings , especially hitbodedut ,I have also read lots on saba ,I think it's a big mitake to talk against him ,he was a true eved hashem . ahavas isroel is a major teaching of rabbi nachman. It's a big mistake in my opinion to get caught up in wether or not saba received the petek or someone put it there ,neither can be proven it's one witness against another. If you believe in the petek say nanach and be yotsei then go learn torah and work on your self to be a better jew and come closer to hashem if you don't believe ,do the same . rabbi nachman was put on this earth by hashem for everysingle jew with teachings that could truly change someones life and in turn the world for the better , you don't even need to call yourself breslev to learn his teachings , I know jews from all walks of life that have greatly benifited from his teachings ,especially hitbodedut , which rabbi nachman says can bring someone to places higher than any other avodas hashem ,that is not to say all the other elements of serving hashem (learning halochos,gemarah ,working on shalom bayis ect.) aren't essential to a jews comming close to hashem, they all go together. we can learn from all leaders of am isroel ,chassidic and litvak ,hareidi and dati leumi.remember the goal is to get to hashem .
There was once a guy named Menachem K. who fought against all the rabbis and cursed them etc.. He went far overboard, and perhaps also due to the rabbis retaliation, Menachem K. suffered great calamities, his whole life was destroyed L"U and he went off the deep end. Now this Menachem is, as Rabbainu put it, trying to dig deeper in the depth of hell.
Rabbainu said there is no despair!
In the merit of the many good things Menachem did with great mesiras nefesh may H"Y give him back a life.
which rabbis did he fight against and curse? and why did he curse them?
so you remain anonymous but you want to know everyone else's name.
sorry.
but don't give up!
don't despair!
just visit nanach.net!
alright, i will stop being anonymous.
which rabbis did i ever curse?
and against whom did i fight?
i accepted every gezeirah they made against me, despite the great suffering of losing my wife and children and home and everything else.
sure i had great anger, but who wouldnt to endure what i did when they attacked me over na nach?
but the sod of why they attacked me you do not know at all.
maybe if you reveal who YOU are i will tell you. it will be good for the people on this forum to know the great power the tzaddik's wrath...
It's no secret who I am, naanaach is my pen name throughout all the comments on this article, and it's how I sign my posts on nanach.net.
This nanach heard just a little about what you went through and is G-d forbid not judging you, just stating the facts. B"H this Nanach was priveleged to learn what many consider a vast amount of Tora, much more than most people, especially more than alot of Nanach who never had the opportunity, and many of whom forgo all the Tora learning to spread the light of Rabbainu with great mesiras nefesh. These people have tremendous tests which I observe from a safe vantage. Their mesiras nefesh is legendary, but at the same time they are thrown into dramatic ups and downs and questions of faith which are in reality trivialities if they only would have had the benefit of a little more knowledge. Often they also do very dangerous and if I can say stupid things, as I pointed out in your case. It is very very very dangerous to launch a full head out attack against all rabbis, even fakers. Rabbi Nachman even speaks about bad rabbis who hurt people with their powers, he is not impressed with them, calling them mazikim. Certainly when one condemns and curses many rabbis who have enormous good deeds in their merits even if they are not 100% honest to themselves, others and God, they definitely have alot of mesiras nefesh and importance.
It seems to me that you got in way over your head, got hit very hard, maybe even much harder than I can imagine, and just couldn't pull through. Maybe you felt that your mesiras nefesh should have been enough to protect you, but it doesn't always work that way.
So right now I'm definitely not judging you, and I really can't know your circumstances, but I do know that you still have free will and that you definitely can pull through. This Nanach has seen others fall pretty bad, and pop back in there, your case is much more extreme, but you can pull through. Even according to the garbage you fell into you definitely can pull through, except they want you to believe that the garbage is an outside force, and Rabbainu teaches that the garbage is also just another way that God speaks to you. Because God is in every test. Even though this is more a curse than a test.
You are in very deep otherwise you'd realize that posting as you did here in the comments is self hurt and infliction because these people are just waiting for such an opportunity to completely castigate Nanach. They do not have the test you have because for them it is just a matter of prestige, power, and money.
If you want you can email me directly at @gmail.com.
Na Nach Nachmu Nachman Meuman
its naanaach@
Rabbi Nachman is like josef and na nach is like moses. If Na Nach doesn't bring Rabbi Nachman of Breslev to Israel we will not get through the final Yam Sof! I don't care how holy these yids are, there are some simple basics in torah and logic that illudes them...why?
A real Na Nach is someone who has no ambitions other then the will of Rabbi Israel Ber Odesser.
Rabbi Nachman is like josef and na nach is like moses. If Na Nach doesn't bring Rabbi Nachman of Breslev to Israel we will not get through the final Yam Sof! I don't care how holy these yids are, there are some simple basics in torah and logic that illudes them...why?
A real Na Nach is someone who has no ambitions other then the will of Rabbi Israel Ber Odesser.
check this out:
http://etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-04062005-173302/unrestricted/Thesis.pdf
why do you write nachmu and not nachma?
hi nice to read your blog i am doing a case study on rabbi nachman and on his teachings as they have helped me a lot. however there are certian things i donot agree with and that is seeing a different ideology as less than perfect or even as dangerous.
as a Christian i have seen the same thing happen in my religion where each group sees the other group as subversive and as a threat to the religion and its people.I have had the freedom to choose my faith and i have explored different faiths and even atheism all of this has bought me to an understanding of myself and has brought me closer to G-D and not further. i still believe in G-D and Jesus and i have come to respect those who dont belive in either. the divisions should make us stronger and more tolerable not paraniod. every human being longs for someone who will listen to him/her and for love G-D helps us understand that better. each person will have his/her own understanding of G-D this dosent make them less holy or less devout just different. and then isnt it more important ot love those who we dont get along with than those who we get along with. the world needs peace not ideology :)
dear sonia,
it's nice of you to join our conversation, please allow to me speak strongly. It is my experience that those people that have radical views (like those that believe in j. who caused such terrible suffering in the world...) are the ones preaching love and kindness. The Nanach also preach love and kindness but we recognise that there are times that love and kindness calls for harsh measures. Obviously you would agree that if a 4 year old entered a wedding spraying people with an automatic rifle, the proper thing would be to tackle him immediately. So to the Nanach are making extremely necessary corrective actions in the world, consider them love and kindness, nothing less.
I am a former professor and have written an overview of Torah and Chassidut inspired by Na Nach. I also provide some deeper explanations into the details of Na Nach and the petek as they have been shared with me.
Enlightening the World
WITH
THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
The Spiritual Mission of Moses
and the Jewish People
Inspired by the Teaching of Rebbe Nachman
Na Nach Nachma Nachman From Uman
Please take a look
http://mosestorah.wordpress.com/
Rabbi Sears Shalom !
Many years ago [about 20] when I was investigating the "petek" I looked up Rav Ashcenazi's son [not grandson]. His name was Avraham Aschenazi. He passed away a couple of years ago in Bnei Brak. He told me that he was a personal witness at the moment that Rav Odesser came out of his room with the petek that he found in the book. He told me that very shortly afterwards, the avrechim at Rabbi Meir ba'al haness yeshiva were so upset about such a miracle happenning to the breslever chassid that was so obstinate with his belief in Rabbi Nachman, they made a thourough inquiry and couldn't find the "culprit" who played the prank. So some of them started saying that it must have been Aschenazi, since he was the prankster [leytzan] of the yeshiva. This son [Avraham] told me that he knows without any bit of doubt that his father did not write the petek, and that no natural explanation was found. He asked me to be carefull not to quote this information in his name out of fear for what the other Slonim chasiddim and "gedoley breslev" will do to him !!!!!!! The grandson that you quoted was not alive at the time, and was only repeating the "heresay" that was purposely inventented to hide the miraculous event. He refused to be taped. Now that he is not in olam hazeh, I can quote him. So if you don't have enough belief in Rabbi Nachman to believe that the story of the petek could be true, there is nothing I can do to help you.
A quick survey in Uman on Rosh Hashana will reveal that the fringe qroup is probably about 50 - 70 percent of those coming to Uman, and growing stronger every year. Interesting for being "fringe".
If I may ask, if this discussion is still live...
I do not understand how the NaNachs, those claiming to follow Rabbenu's derech in some absolute form, seem to have missed the most basic underlying principle:
You can twist my teachings whichever way you wish to understand them, so long as you do not deviate one iota from the Shulchan Aruch.
How could living teachers and living authority be discarded? At what point did Dvarim 16-17 become ignored? It is not permitted to change even a crown of a letter; how can the underlying principle of mesorah be removed? At what point did this "saba" supersede the Torah of HaShem? At what point did it become permissible to add and remove, to deviate to the left and to the right?
I would urge you to read Haazinu (and the middle of Parshat Re'eh). Please come back.
HH - the Nanach are the real masters of the tradition - do a little homework and you will see that - R. Yisroel Dov Odesser had the strongest tradition to Rabbi Nachman - and he fought for it - that is one of the fundamental messages of the Petek - "referring to you I said my fire will burn till the coming of the Messiah" - the succession of Breslov and Judaism till the coming of the Messiah is only through the loyal ways of the Nanach - who are the only true ones that are loyal to the entire Torah and all of the Halacha! Those who deviate even an iota from the Nanach will violate the Torah and it's Laws over and over, HY.
Great blessings of Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!
> Those who deviate even an iota from the Nanach will violate the Torah and it's Laws over and over, HY.
I find it mildly terrifying that you seem to be using the words "NaNach" and "Torah" interchangably.
אַתֶּם, הַדְּבֵקִים, בַּה', אֱלֹהֵיכֶם--חַיִּים כֻּלְּכֶם, הַיּוֹם. ה רְאֵה לִמַּדְתִּי אֶתְכֶם, חֻקִּים וּמִשְׁפָּטִים, כַּאֲשֶׁר צִוַּנִי, ה' אֱלֹהָי: לַעֲשׂוֹת כֵּן--בְּקֶרֶב הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם בָּאִים שָׁמָּה לְרִשְׁתָּהּ. וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם, וַעֲשִׂיתֶם--כִּי הִוא חָכְמַתְכֶם וּבִינַתְכֶם, לְעֵינֵי הָעַמִּים: אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁמְעוּן, אֵת כָּל-הַחֻקִּים הָאֵלֶּה, וְאָמְרוּ רַק עַם-חָכָם וְנָבוֹן, הַגּוֹי הַגָּדוֹל הַזֶּה. כִּי מִי-גוֹי גָּדוֹל, אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ אֱלֹהִים קְרֹבִים אֵלָיו, כַּה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ, בְּכָל-קָרְאֵנוּ אֵלָיו. וּמִי גּוֹי גָּדוֹל, אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ חֻקִּים וּמִשְׁפָּטִים צַדִּיקִם, כְּכֹל הַתּוֹרָה הַזֹּאת, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי נֹתֵן לִפְנֵיכֶם הַיּוֹם.
...
אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם--אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ.
...
חֲדָשִׁים מִקָּרֹב בָּאוּ,
לֹא שְׂעָרוּם אֲבֹתֵיכֶם.
(From Parshat Ve'etchan and Parshat Ha'azinu)
Oh, also...
> "referring to you I said my fire will burn till the coming of the Messiah" - the succession of Breslov and Judaism till the coming of the Messiah is only through the loyal ways of the Nanach - who are the only true ones that are loyal to the entire Torah and all of the Halacha!
is in direct opposition to all prophecies of ingathering and return at the time of Moshiach in Yirmiya and Yeshaya, and possibly others, but my recall is insufficient. It's a decent paraphrase of some of the late Essene works though, and of some of their religious offshoots.
Please explain using non-self-authenticated sources how this "transmission" is valid.
I still do not understand how this corruption arose in the first place. This constant, arrogant written/spoken elevation of one supposed "derech" to the invalidation of all others, this obsession with how some point about how you were right all along that will not and can not be proven until the time of Moshiach, this reliance on a _lack_ of sources and self-generated circular "mesorah" (eg, This book is authoritative! It says so right here on page 1!), increasing divisiness in Israel... out of curiousity, how much did your authors read the xtian letters of paul? We could probably find chapter and verse that match with single replacement. The more of this I am reading, the more it looks like ram dass meets qumran cult.
Please, please, PLEASE sit down with any, _any_ non-nanach sefer and at least try to study for a few minutes. Please look at something else, even if only to see what you're missing or trying to replace.
-elf
BH @elf - thank you for quoting to me the Torah - verses which I'm very familiar with - and have studied them countless of times - but do you believe in the oral Torah???? Because our Sages OBM asked the question: How in actuality is it possible to bind one's self to G-d???? So our Sages revealed that the reality of these Divine words are a doctrine to bind one's self, in every way possible to the Tzadikim! Furthermore the Talmud ridicules those who stand for the Torah and don't stand for the Tzadik! So let it be clear to you that the Torah is Nanach - because Nanach is the root and the foundation of the whole Torah.
2. regarding the prophecies of the future - B"H only stupid and bored people try to determine these things - as the Rambam wrote - except for very holy Tzadikim who were actually privy to these things.
3. the reason why I do not bring sources is because the truth is the reverse, it is only your complete ignorance which is leading you to dispute the obvious. Also the Nanach have already provided sources in previous arguments. You would do good to visit the nanach site - dot org and start learning some real Torah.
4. about learning other sections of the Torah - before I was Nanach I had already published books on the written Torah, Talmud, Mussar, and Kabbala. In addition my family has a very celebrated lineage, and my direct family, father, uncles, brother in laws all are at the head of their respective yeshivas. So what I know to stay away from, I know first hand, up close. Been there, seen it.
Now B"H has save me and brainwashed me clean of all their programming.
Pray and scream to HY to be freed.
Great blessings of Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!
Having read some of the comments above, and especially the biased and discriminatory article on the NaNach movement, I felt compelled to say just this: All the theories brought forward here have no power vis a vis the tremendous personal testimony that I can give: I am not a teen, I am an adult Jew in my 40's whose life has been powerfully transformed by NaNachwith its Petek and mantra. This surpasses ALL theory. NaNach is living Judaism!
please translate to ivrit
גם אם הולכים לפי החקירות ולא לפי אשרי תמימי דרך עוד לא עניתם על השאלה איך שפוסק הדור כמו רבי משה פיינשטיין זצ"ל נתן לרבי ישראל בר אודסר זצ"ל הסכמה על
.הפתק - אפשר לקבל העתק
החידוש של ננח זה בא דווקא למנוע מברסלב להיות כת חסידית כמו כל האדמורות ואדרבא ברבה בא לאותת לנו שיש היתחדשות ברוח הברסלבי ולא זיקנות והשם נ נח הוא הראייה כמו שכתוב ונפש חיה הוא שמו
בברכה
Liar!
Either you or your Rav are a Liar and a Great Demon!!!
HAVE YOU READ THE CONTENT OF THE PETEK? HOW CAN IT BE A PRANK?
HOW DID HE KNOW WHAT DATE THE PETEK WOULD BE DISCOVERED?
IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE NEGLECTED FASTING 17TH TAMMUZ?
WHICH NOBODY KNEW ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
LIAR! LIAR! GREAT DEMON! GREAT DEMON!
JUDGMENT DAY IS COMING SOON, DEMONS WILL SUFFER ETERNAL TORTURE
NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN
I believe in the petek and B"H spend time with Rabeinu and Saba at the Har Hamenukhot every Rosh Hashana.
I challenge anyone to claim that I do something wrong or damaging after spending time with me.
Sin'at Chinam is the cancer of our society and I can't urge stronger all of the sides in this debate to be respectful and not belittle needlessly each other despite what one Rabbi or another had said.
If anyone has a concrete problem with the petek and Saba zts"l feel free to share as long as it's not hearsay and rumours (lashon ha-ra!)
I agree i was in na nach for many years .you have no idea how much hatred is cutivated in rebbe nachmans name ( same in regards to all of breslov they belive reb nachman to be superior to all other tzadikim).and then theres all the theft of tzedaka ,peadofilia the list goes on.
I honestly think differently of breslov ever since i delved deep
So end of the day i dont see the need to belive in tsadikim anymore ...just belive in hashem
I belive thats what reb nachman also wanted
Yes also i think reb nachman would have given alot of 20thcenturybreslevers a punch if he saw where they took his teachings
Most Jews today are Reform. But from the Torah perspective, aka the correct perspective, they are marginal and they are wrong. Numbers don't mean that someone has the truth or the mesorah.
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