Thursday, September 11, 2008

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein & The Petek


Continuing the conversation from here.

223 Comments:

At September 11, 2008 at 12:23:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

This hamlotzo sais, that R' Moyshe was shown an amazing document by R' Odesser.

So? It doesn't say anything about its authenticity, since it is not possible to say anything. It can be pretty amazing, and written by someone who played a joke with R' Odesser. This doesn't support anything regarding the story of the petek. The hamlotzo sais to help to R' Odesser, since he want to publish sforim. That's all.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:35:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

you cannot begin to understand how hurtful that is to call those connected to Saba missionaries. Missionaries! We are not trying to 'convert' anyone! I do not know where you live, but if you are familiar with the work they do in Israel just to bring a smile to another Jew's heart!
I believe saba-noon explained very well - he did not say anything against those who have yet to understand the significance of the petek, he said that reaching the level he has through connecting to the petek, he must seek spiritual guidance from one who too is connected to the petek. (I note that though I have not had the opportunity to read the entire dialogue that has taken place here, it seems to me that no one asked what the petek's content means. Not that this is the perfect place for this to be discussed, but it seems that the most essential issue is being ignored). I am sure you know this story - once the Baal Shem Tov HaKadosh was asked ver sharply why the chassidim act in such a peculiar and unacceptable manner, using dance and singing in prayer - the Tzaddik answered with a story, "Imagine a great musician stands at the end of the main city street and begins to play. Soon a crowd gathers around and so inspired by this beautiful music begins to dance with the music. Then a deaf man walks by, and from where he stands at the other end of the road cannot see the musician, only a crowd of people dancing wildly in the middle of downtown, and thinks they have all gone crazy! Then the Tzaddik asked, "If we, the chassidim, hear the infinitly beautiful singing of all Creation to Boreh Olam and join in singing and dancing, are we crazy simply because we hear the song and others do not?"
I ask further - if G-d forbid the connection to Saba was leading Jews away from the Torah, or halacha, or away even from Rabbenu Tzaddik Yesod Olam, then I could understand your atitude, or comparing us to missionaries. But since obviously from everything that has been written here gives witness that the connection to Saba and the petek inspire us to strive to ascend in our devekut and our love and commitment to the Holy Torah and to do as best we can to fulfill the teachings of Rabbenu (even though we may fail time and time again - but as Rabbenu taught there is no despair in this world at all) - then I think trying to understand the petek and its message of geula to be something one would hope to strive for - instead of argue against.
I do apologize if out of my love for Saba and his followers I have spoken in a manner that has offended anyone. It is clear to me that everyone here is only trying to understand their fellow Jew, that everyone here has only the best of intentions and I am sorry if I have been offensive to anyone. Ahavat Yisrael is so very very important!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:50:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Na Nach is EMES everything else is SHEKER!!!!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:54:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Yes, Gita, Sounds real good. 100% your writing history!! Simple, extremely important Torah.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 12:54:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H
saba - noon'

say some more, give me strength with your words about saba, help me try to explain just a little bit more!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:24:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

These people are tainted with tiavah, They cannot perceve the truth clearly, that is why they keep saying the same dumb "Rehtoric" (that's a fancy word for chochmah) as we already explained numerous times that the letter of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein is not an endorsement on it's authenticity. yet they continuely want to prove us wrong. We The Na Nach on the other hand don't really care at all if we are wrong or right, we just want truth. they want to fight. that is why they just keep asking the same question. They expose themselves with their own words.

This Shakran says... "It can be pretty amazing, and written by someone who played a joke with R' Odesser." they think that the mockery of the misnagdim (who wanted to kill us) is a wonderful thing. It is clear that they, who say such things are cursed, cursed in their life and certainly cursed in the next life. They live in Hell right now. They have no portion in holiness those that praise mockery.
They mock the Tzadik, they are not Breslov and this Torah is from the other side for it offers no inspiration for Avodas HaShem. They are only trying to enter their Kephirah into our hearts, There is no greater evil then this.
Say Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman It destroys Kephirah, For more inspiration. Visit nanach.net. There is Truth Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:29:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

chazak u'baruch

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:38:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

saba-noon said:Na Nach is EMES everything else is SHEKER!!!!

Gita: You see? This just supports my point. If you don't like, when such attitude is compared with missionaries (when pushed on others especially) this doesn't mean it is not similar. It doesn't worth it to hide from facts.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:45:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yid said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:47:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

I ask further - if G-d forbid the connection to Saba was leading Jews away from the Torah, or halacha, or away even from Rabbenu Tzaddik Yesod Olam

It seems that this connection leads people away from emuas chachomim, brings some individuals to bizarre gayva, despise for others, thinking only they are "emes" etc. This is really BAD.

But I assume it is not the connection with R' Odesser himself, but with the ideology which was shaped by some anarchy-likers, who just used him a someone to "hang" to. I doubt that he advocated many of those things such people do.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 1:54:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

gita If you would like email me..
yosephsaban1@gmail.com

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:05:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

It seems to me that there is only one person who's writing against Nanach - this bahaltener (as I mentioned before his name is composed of the first letters of Breslov, Nachman, and the remained letters spell alte - old). There is usually going to be someone against something. Overall the Nanach decimated all the arguements against them, reducing the other sides arguements to namecalling and the like. If this bahaltener guy wants the truth he has ample opportunity. Now if there is anyone else that has any issues with Nanach let's hear from them, and we'll leave bahaltener to suffer with his opinions.
It was nice to see that the site posted the haskama - aprobation from R' Moshe, I really would not have expected it from them. המתחיל במצוה אומרים לו גמור - they should publish the English one which R' Moshe also signed.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:19:00 PM EDT, Blogger Menashe said...

It pains me to see these discussions over and over again. I see what it has done to Lubavitch and I fear what it will do to Breslov.

Boruch Hashem many of the wounds are beginning to heal here in Lubavitch. With the exception of a few emese mishigoyim, there is much achdus which the rest of klal yisroel would do well to emulate.

My small bit of advice is not to let this tear apart Breslov.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:36:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Overall the Nanach decimated all the arguements against them
You can imagine whatever you want, but the bottom line is nanachs have big problems with emunas chachomim, and with respect to tzadikim as your colleauge said:

Na Nach is EMES everything else is SHEKER!!!!

 
At September 11, 2008 at 3:40:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

My small bit of advice is not to let this tear apart Breslov.

Do you imagine calling this not tearing apart, when someone tears themselves apart, saying:

Na Nach is EMES everything else is SHEKER!!!!

There is no need to tear apart something that tears itself apart. In a sense nanach radicalism is similar to some meshichist radicalism present in Chabad. Though it is of a different nature.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 4:26:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

i am sorry. i reiterate - nanach is not radicalism. anyone who tries to define anything about Breslov is obviously missing the heart of it all.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 5:11:00 PM EDT, Anonymous observer said...

GITA: you're making sense and being respectful as well. Thank you.

SABA NOON and NAANAACH: You're throwing personal insults to people just because they disagree with you. Behaltener and anyone else has a right to disagree with you and voice strong opinions, and they have done it in a much more courteous way than you have. Grow up and learn some derech eretz before you speak in a way that causes chilul Hashem and brings disgrace to the good name of Saba.

BEHALTENER: I really don't understand why you're being so adamant in insisting that the petek is not true. I'm sure you know the famous saying: "one who believes all the Baal Shem Tov stories is a fooll, but one who doesn't believe them at all is an apikores". And I think it was R' Nachman who said that it's better to believe them all and be called a full than not to believe them at all... I don't understand how a jew, especially a chassid could say with absolute certainty that the petek is a joke... Do you not believe that it's possible for R' Nachman to have come down and sent his talmid an encouraging note? Do you even personally know the person who claims he did it that you can believe him more than Saba? Can you say with absolute certainty that the whole life of Saba (who was an undisputed tzaddik) was based on a practical joke?

I understand you see a lot of fault with nanach. There are serious issues to be discussed. I suggest discuss them with sensible people like Gita and not Saba noon or Naanaach.

It seems to me (from reading your earlier posts on ASJ as well as you blog) that you're one on those people that can't tollerate radicals. That's Ok. But you may not be the right person to be a kannai. And if you choose to continue, please keep your kannaus carefully measured (carefully measured kannaus is really good!). Remember that the early chassidim seemed very radical to none other than the holy Gr'a, and he made a tragic mistake the consequenses of which have undoubtly delayed moshiach...

MENASHE: I think there could be nothing better than a sincere dialogue between Chabad meshichists and Nanachs. I think you both posess the light of moshiach, you just got to put them together...

 
At September 11, 2008 at 7:04:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

observer:
Someone who says that the petek is not true. Is insulting The Saba the precious student of Rebbe Nachman. It was nothing personal I said about b. it goes for anyone that thinks and talks like this. It is not my opinion alone. The Saba very clearly said that those who openly and clearly oppose the validity of the Petek have no portion in Israel, the Torah, Rebbe Nachman or holiness or anything. The Saba, very openly, clearly said these things many times, in front of many people and on tape and on video. Personally I believe him. I really love everyone and everything, this is my nature and my belief especially Jews and in particular breslovers. I am friendly with many people I know who don't accept the Petek and I never give off a bad feeling nor receive one(hardly, though Barook Hashem I do get insults for being Na Nach sometimes but never in my heart do I every hold any grudges). But people who openly publish the lies on this site, nothing personal,(I really do believe that soon even they will accept the Petek, But I must inform them what they are rejecting) But I must call them lies in order to give a choice to the readers otherwise people might believe (The Childish Prank article) We are not looking for converts only to inform, everyone still has free choice. One cannot force a choice on someone and I respect everyones choice, really, but I have been forced into this argument. (It is many many pages long). None the less It is my job to inform the world of the message of Na Nach. I should add that Saba said about this letter of R' Moshe Feinstein, That If it were not for this letter, they would kill us for what we are doing. visit nanach.net

 
At September 11, 2008 at 7:55:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

observer: I agree with you in most of the points. And usually I have no interest at all in any discussions with radicals, since they rarely help for them. However, if they are propagating false ideas to people who aren't enough familiar with Chasidus, and Breslov in particular, someone has to come out and say they are wrong. May be I'm not the most suitable for that. But I did it since since others didn't speak it out clearly here, even though many agree. However as you see, these people take silence as an endorsement of their behavior.

This is needed also, because such spiritual anarchy and pegam in emunas chachomim causes harm to Breslov (in relation with general Jewish world too) and as you said causes chilul Hashem.

Regarding whether to say adamantly that the story of the petek is not true etc. I'm personally isn't interested in the story. And it is not relevant to Breslov at all. But when someone comes and says "all who beleive in story are true, all who don't are false" they have to be put in place. There is evidence (oral, though no one can produce you an oath on this of course) from people who wrote this petek. I don't care in the least, but if nanachs come and use this petek as a base for chilul Hashem, I'll tell them what those people said (who claim they wrote it) and say that the story is not true.

Remember that the early chassidim seemed very radical to none other than the holy Gr'a, and he made a tragic mistake the consequenses of which have undoubtly delayed moshiach...
Yes, responsive measures can go overboard. But I don't think anyone is proposing to persecute Nanchs or starts redifoys on them. Chalilo. However one should voice what one's thinks is wrong, if it affects many to prevent problems. Usually the opposite is the case anyway - Nanachs are aggressively relating to those who don't hold their methods and ideas valid, as you saw here.

I think there could be nothing better than a sincere dialogue between Chabad meshichists and Nanachs. I think you both posess the light of moshiach, you just got to put them together...

I think that this shows that Breslov and Chabad (not exactly Nanach or Meshichism) do posess the light of Chasidus (the light of Moshiach etc.), however the true light causes also the surrounding shadow. I.e. it seems that most radical things did came out of Chasidus that posessed the strongest light. May be because the risk of it was higher. This is also apparent, that they attract really crazy people. (I.e. literally crazy), who gravitate to radicalism.

Chasidim historically did have radical practices. For example Pshischer chasidim had very radical way of showing non conformism, wearing cabbage leaves on their heads, but they understood what they meant, and it wasn't caused because they just liked to be anarch-hippies or something. And it wasn't based on pegam in emunas chachomim. While this radical practices sometimes have a point, they have serious potential dangers too, if are applied inconsiderate. It seems many forget about the second part. They are especially bad, in case when they lead people to gayva and despising others, when they perceive themselves as superior to everyone else.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 8:32:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Ahavat Yisrael is so very very important!
Thank you.

nanach is not radicalism
Why does it produce so many unbalanced radical people than?

 
At September 11, 2008 at 8:40:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"There is evidence (oral, though no one can produce you an oath on this of course) from people who wrote this petek."

really, Joel Ashkenaz's grandson thinks that the story is false and he's Na Nach.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 10:08:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

the main pigam of emunas chuchamim is not fully believing in Rabbi Nachman and the Saba, worry about that before you worry about these other people who are at best questionable.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 10:14:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

AND TALKING ABOUT EMUNAS CHACHUMIM, WHAT ABOUT THE WAY YOU WRITE OFF R' MOSHE? And your claim that we contradict ouselves is quite a desperate one. We have made ourselves quite clear, anyone with untainted Emuna will believe in the Petek without the need to come on to R' Moshe, and on the contrary it is almost disrespectful for R' Nachman, the greatest master of Israel, or the Saba for that matter, to have to be approbated by R' Moshe. But for those struggling with their faith, the approbation of R' Moshe should certainly help them, but as is often the case they'll disrespect even one of their own.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 10:31:00 PM EDT, Blogger Menashe said...

Just to clarify - I could not be further from a mishichist and I have a big problem with the phenomenon itself. These are not small inyanim. But I love the people. 99% of them are emese chassidim who have yiras and ahavas Hashem like no one else.

I think one of the most important qualities of Chabad "tearing apart" over the past 14 years and slowly coming back together is that we never stopped "holding" by each other. This is important and an easy way to differentiate bein emes lsheker. It's one thing to disagree. But to make someone possul because of it? This is too much and must be universally rejected.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 10:53:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

We have made ourselves quite clear

Sure, after all you said you made yourself quite clear. I prefer such problems to be openly seen by people, so they wouldn't be misled by someone twisting around the subject. The attitude on the issue of emunas chachomim that you presented was very clear and visible. Thank you for your help on that, i.e. for not hiding your true views.

Contradiction in your way of presenting the issue of the petek (in relation with Reb Moyshe) will remain, since you claim that you don't need any endorsement, on the other hand you constantly refer to Reb Moyshe's "haskomo" to it, while the document here doesn't say a word about such haskomo (to the authenticity of the document), and you didn't even answer (because you can't answer and no one can) how is it even possible to give such haskomo on some event and its cause, if one (who gives the haskomo) wasn't there. Only the witness can testify for such thing. And he deed. You however doesn't want to believe it.

 
At September 11, 2008 at 11:06:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

I think one of the most important qualities of Chabad "tearing apart" over the past 14 years and slowly coming back together is that we never stopped "holding" by each other.

This is arguable. For example tfilin written by those meshichistn who fell into more serious and grave mistakes (so called Elokistn) were declared posul by Chabad poyskim and etc. Holding by each other means that one can help to explain others mistakes, but if the other doesn't want to hear and insists on doing this mistakes, you can't do much here, and such one isn't interested in "holding".

If some Nanach can hear that pegam in emunas chachomim is bad, and him calling all tzadikim - mefursomim shel sheker is a crooked thing which is against the Rebbe himself, and rejecting all Breslover teachers is false, than he can "held by" by other Breslovers even with their radical methods. Otherwise, those who prefer anarchy aren't interested in it themselves (holding together), so what's the point to hold them against their will?

 
At September 12, 2008 at 12:17:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

i ask permission to address two issues that have been raised:
as for the 'validity' of the petek, without chas v'shalom any disrespect, if a Jew was to say he, for example, 'believed' in Moshe, but when asked if he believed that Moshe (through Hashem of course!) did any of those miracles written about in the Bible the Jew would say, "Let's not get carried away. Those are just entertaining stories" you would surely argue with that conclusion, no? -- so first of all, to call the petek a childish prank can only be done if one has not delved into the deeper meanings of the petek, because once one begins to understand these depths he will understand that this "childish prank" could not be pulled off by anyone living in Tiberias at that time, i.e. no one could have written the contents of that letter; too, for anyone who has felt the strength of the Tzaddik in his life, which I am sure I as well as the other nanachs writing here have, to suggest that a letter could not have miraculously been brought down from Olam HaEmet, is (a) to put doubt on the words of Saba who very clearly said it was so and (b) to cast chas v'shalom doubt on the idea that such a miracle could happen, i.e. that if we know Hashem Ein Od Milvado then we cannot limit our belief to the laws of 'nature', and too to cast doubt on the teaching that the strength of the Tzaddik is even greater when he has left this earthly world, i.e. it casts doubts on Rabbenu.
the second issue - when one asks what kind of people seem to flock to Saba - and i am sure you did not mean to offend any of my learned colleagues who have presented here many important issues, then i suggest that we all learn more from Likutei Mohoran about the strength of the Tzaddik Emet, what Rabbenu taught about that only the greatest Tzaddik can go really into the depths of the netherworld because his holiness has the strength to do so (please forgive this very brief and pathetic attempt to summarize such a profound revelation is a few poorly-written words) - then we can try to begin to comprehend who Rabbenu and who Saba are and with what messirut nefesh they save Jews who are the farthest away from Hashem. Isn't this, in very simplistic terms, why Hashem sent the Holy Baal Shem Tov to this world, to save the lost generations of the time before Moshiach? When the Tzaddik went to sit in the marketplaces and tell stories, do you think he was sitting with Talmidei Chachamim, or with the simple Jews who were lost and distant because of the prolonged galut? And please remember - the Holy Baal Shem Tov taught how we surely cannot know the "value" of any Jew, that is to say we cannot know from outer appearances "who is who", so in my humble opinion anyone who has any connection to Chassidut should remember humbly who we are and on the other hand who the great Tzaddikim are and that as they came to rectify ALL Jews, and Rabbenu teaching us to find the nekuda tova in even the rasha - who are we to start putting labels on fellow Jews or to claim that we have the knowledge into the true 'quality' of their souls Jews?

please forgive me for having written perhaps too much and unfortunately not well enough.

kol tuv!

 
At September 12, 2008 at 12:45:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, all you Na Nach's out there, don't get caught in the web of argument, let's blast some holy music and take our holy feet to dance on the roofs of the holy Na Nach vans. Let's be happy that we have reached this level of Emunah in the song Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman and in the Saba, and let's bring this joy to the rest of the world through song.

A Na Nach

 
At September 12, 2008 at 7:33:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Menatzpach said...

Saba-Noon: Many people are familiar with Na Nachs because of the widespread Na Nach graffiti. Do you agree with this practice or do you think that vandalizing property may be problematic halachically?

(i.e. it goes against Rebbe Nachman's expressed command not to go against the Shulchan Aruch)

 
At September 12, 2008 at 9:10:00 AM EDT, Anonymous observer said...

BEHALTENER: That's what I mean by responsible kanaus, that you should ONLY deal with real issues and not get carried away about the petek. The real issues are as you say, lack of emunas chachamim and attitude that everything else is sheker. If you mix into this the petek, and klaim that it's not true, you'll just sound stupid, because ultimately you're wrong, no one can say with certainty that the petek is not true. And if Nanachs claim with certainty that it is true, what's the big deal? As I said in the name of R' Nachman, it's better to be a fool than apikores. So I suggest stay away from the petek if you want to focus on the real issues.

Now, here's what I think of this whole phenomenon: The Gerrer rebbe is known to have said the following - that when haskala came into the world, we left it for the secular. And when zionizm came into the world we left if for the secular. And now that tshuva is coming into the world we're leaving it for the secular too!!!

My point is that when great lights come down from Above, there's a great danger that they fall into impure hands. Unless those of us with yiras shamaim act quickly and take and use those lights and take from them the good points and separate the klipa. It happened with haskala. G-d fearing jews did absolutely nothing when the light of science came into the world, and it fell to the klipos. It happened with zionism. When secular zionists were moser nefesh to settle E'Y, most G-d fearing jews continued sitting on their TOCHASES doing nothing. And exuses abounded... Shev v'al taase adif, right? Well, we all know what happened, the light that was supposed to be the begining of kibbutz galuyos fell into the hands of complete reshoim who turned it into secular zionism, while most G-d fearing jews burned in Europe...

I now see it happening with Nanach. Wether you hold of the petek or not, these people have some light that others DON'T. How do I know? Who else drives around Tel Aviv bringing R' Nachman's message to everybody, even complete chilonim? Although I respect all Breslov manhigim, I don't see them encouraging their followers to do it, definitely not with the same mesirus nefesh and power and simcha as Nanachs.

The problem with great lights is that they are unstable in the begining. And the job of G-d fearing people here is not to run away from these lights chas v'shalom, but to work together with them and help stabilize them! (And they (Nanachs) could definitely use it - having an attitude that ONLY my derech is right is far from kedusha). But you can only do it once you at least acknowlege the light, i.e. their nekudos tovos. (I mean really acknowlege and identify with it. You should say "I wish I was zoche to do hafatza with the same mesirus mefesh and simcha that you people do", not just lip service. Or even better - go and do it.) Only then you'll be able to critisize productively.

 
At September 12, 2008 at 10:05:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should know that the term Rav Moshe uses "niflah" in this letter. While this word has a good connotation generally it literally means wondrous and can have a somewhat negative connotation. As in a wonder. The fact that he never pushed it or even said it as far as we know seems to show how he really felt.

On the other hand he had nothing against Breslov. Once a father complained to him that his son was Breslov. Rav Moshe said, "Father's and sons have argued about this for a long time; who is to say who is right? So he wished to give a haskamah to a chashuv tzaddik to colllect money for Rebbe Nachman's seforim who had a strange custom but was all in all worthy of respect. Rav Moshe was not too particular about giving letters in any event

 
At September 13, 2008 at 1:48:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

Shavua tov to all.

observer: i wish to applaud all what you have said in your last post, and the ahavat yisrael in which the content was presented.

one should make the effort to consider what it is giving the strength to the nanachs - and i refer to those who show consistent and immeasurable messirut nefesh to bring Rebbe Nachman to ALL, - i think with preserverance to understand one would discover Saba, and the petek and the name of the Tzaddik Na Nach Nachma Nachman m'Uman.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 2:48:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Anonymous:
In english R' Moshe Feinstein says that he was "inspired" Do you suppose that he was inspired by what he thought was a practical joke? Were you not aware that is what he wrote? It just sounds so sphisticated to think that way. As a Na Nach I am inspired by true things, true miracles, not by what I think is a practical joke by a misnagged. Be like the simpleton not like the sophisticate.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 3:12:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Saba said someone who openly denies the miracle of the petek was not standing at Mount Sinai, has no kashrus to Breslov, the Torah or anything.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 3:24:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

about grifitti, If someone has permission then it's ok. writing grifitti is not essential to the Na Nach shita and so irrelevant to this discussion. I cannot possibly be accountable for every bit of writting on every wall. I don't know the Halacha, I am not a Posek, I don't write on walls personally and so don't need to know for myself. Na Nach is not the only group that does this. It still stands that Na Nach is a Breslov group that follows the Shulchan Auruch. I am not going to debate this for it is not the essence of Na Nach. Belief in the miracle of the Petek, halacha, Rebbe Nachman's books, the Truth of Saba are essential this is what I wish to discuss.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 4:50:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Gita-
I'd like to address some of what you wrote (very eloquently), and ask you some questions also to understand more what you mean.

--"if a Jew was to say he, for example, 'believed' in Moshe, but when asked if he believed that Moshe (through Hashem of course!) did any of those miracles written about in the Bible the Jew would say, "Let's not get carried away. Those are just entertaining stories" you would surely argue with that conclusion, no?"--
There is a major difference here, in that the miracles in the dor of Moshe were done in front of millions of people. Whether the petek is real or not, it actually happened with NO ONE as a witness. Rabbi Odesser found it in his book. This does not prove it untrue necessarily, but it is not a proof of it's authenticity. I think the emunah we have in the miracles done by Moshe are clear cases of the Parpaos l'Chochma discusses as emunah that is based on da'as.
-- "so first of all, to call the petek a childish prank can only be done if one has not delved into the deeper meanings of the petek, because once one begins to understand these depths he will understand that this "childish prank" could not be pulled off by anyone living in Tiberias at that time, i.e. no one could have written the contents of that letter"
Could you elaborate on this? No one has mentioned this yet in this thread, and I'd be interested in hearing more about what you mean by this. What is in the petek that couldn't have been written by the people in Tiberias?

--"too, for anyone who has felt the strength of the Tzaddik in his life"--
I don't think this either can hold up a proof for the authenticity of the petek in and of itself. There are many, L'HAVDIL, Xtians who would tell us with great sincerity about the power of Yoshka in their lives, but that doesn't make their religion true (Ch'V). I am not comparing the petek to that G-d forbid, but just to demonstrate that passion alone isn't proof. It does show that there is some unique spirituality that is inspiring people- and that is important to take the good from and appreciate in any case, whether the petek is true or not. Even if it wasn't, the positive aspects of the Na Nach movement are big nekudos tovos that we could all learn from.

-- "which I am sure I as well as the other nanachs writing here have, to suggest that a letter could not have miraculously been brought down from Olam HaEmet, is (a) to put doubt on the words of Saba who very clearly said it was so and (b) to cast chas v'shalom doubt on the idea that such a miracle could happen, i.e. that if we know Hashem Ein Od Milvado then we cannot limit our belief to the laws of 'nature', and too to cast doubt on the teaching that the strength of the Tzaddik is even greater when he has left this earthly world, i.e. it casts doubts on Rabbenu."--
As far as the belief in Hashem's, or even the ability of tzadikim to overcome nature, you're right. There is a famous example in the Gemara of Rabbi Yehuda coming home to make Kiddush on Shabbos, even after he was niftar, so presumably letter writing also is not unfeasible. I am not aware of any stories about something like this happening at all since the times of the Gemara though. Maybe they have and I just don't know. Either way, it's possible, and would be a pretty big chiddush.
--"the second issue - when one asks what kind of people seem to flock to Saba - and i am sure you did not mean to offend any of my learned colleagues who have presented here many important issues,"--
The Rebbe says in Likutei Moharan that the letters of the word TZiBuR stand for Tzadikim, Beinonim, Rshaim. I agree that while hefkerus among members of any group can be troubling, we shouldn't throw stones to disqualify people because of that. The reality is that Breslov in general, perhaps because of the universality of the Rebbe's teaching and because of the decentralized leadership, also attracts many "unbalanced" people. In Uman you can find everything from people who are totally insane to the biggest and purest tzadikim.

--"then i suggest that we all learn more from Likutei Mohoran about the strength of the Tzaddik Emet, what Rabbenu taught about that only the greatest Tzaddik can go really into the depths of the netherworld because his holiness has the strength to do so (please forgive this very brief and pathetic attempt to summarize such a profound revelation is a few poorly-written words) - then we can try to begin to comprehend who Rabbenu and who Saba are and with what messirut nefesh they save Jews who are the farthest away from Hashem."--
This is also true. One has no idea what Hashem or Rabbi Nachman are doing with many of the people that come to Uman for example. The same could also apply here. Superficial appearances don't prove anything about anything.

--"Isn't this, in very simplistic terms, why Hashem sent the Holy Baal Shem Tov to this world, to save the lost generations of the time before Moshiach? When the Tzaddik went to sit in the marketplaces and tell stories, do you think he was sitting with Talmidei Chachamim, or with the simple Jews who were lost and distant because of the prolonged galut? And please remember - the Holy Baal Shem Tov taught how we surely cannot know the "value" of any Jew, that is to say we cannot know from outer appearances "who is who", so in my humble opinion anyone who has any connection to Chassidut should remember humbly who we are and on the other hand who the great Tzaddikim are and that as they came to rectify ALL Jews, and Rabbenu teaching us to find the nekuda tova in even the rasha - who are we to start putting labels on fellow Jews or to claim that we have the knowledge into the true 'quality' of their souls Jews?"--

Amen to that.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 5:53:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

yoseph,
I know that you did not write to me, but I like what you wrote and want to respond to what you said I hope it helps.

"it actually happened with NO ONE as a witness. "

We must look at the very words of Saba, He did speak on this topic a lot, the words are recorded on tape and in writing and were said in front of many people.

Saba said "A miracle is a witness to itself." Saba often said that one need only to look at the Petek (or a photocopy of it,) to see that it is a miracle. He also said that the Petek "is a great secret and so am I" I might add that all these arguments that try to explain that the miracle did not happen can be applied C"V to the Torah itself. (ex. do you remember being at Mt.Sinai? which can lead to "Did you know the Sages of the Gemorah? and in the end "Did you ever see a picture of Rebbe Nachman? How do you know that he even existed? etc.) This is why, I beleive, Saba said that denying the Miracle of the Petek is heresy. Although, it is true, personal passion and personal spiritual experiences, are not enough to believe in a miracle but the word of a Tzadik like Saba and the letter of R. Moshe Feinstein really is enough. Really what does one have to lose in believing? The worst thing that the heavenly court can say about one is that they believed in the words of two great tzadikim. Saba and in R. Moshe Feinstsein who testified that Saba was an authentic person. One cannot compare the Xtian experience with this experience for the former is based on avoda Zora, and the later is based on the words of men who unquestionably based their lives on Chazal. One is certainly within Halacha to believe the simple words of Saba. But if one does not believe in the simple meaning of the words of Saba C"V then they run a great risk, based on a story that really has no real credibility. Who really is Joel Ashkenaz? Was he really such a great Tzadik? Was he known for his exceptionally great deeds and good works. Was he a great Scholar? Did he write books? did He inspire many to Tshuvah? Now lets look at the Saba? Did he write a book? yes and recorded many talks. Was he known as a great Scholar? Yes, R' Moshe called him a "Goan in the Torah" also that he knew Kabbalah. Did he inspire many to Tshuvah? Yes to this day thousands, maybe tens of thousands are inspired by the words of Saba. Lets look at R' Moshe Feinstein. Did he write books, have followers, inspire many? Yes. Who would you rather go on record as believing? If it is false C'V, one loses nothing, and gains inspiration to serve G-d and follow the ways of the Torah of Rebbe Nachman. If on the other hand it is true. OY VOY VOY, what one loses by not believing in the simple words of these two great men. Better to be simple and believe the simple words of great Tzadikim of this generation then enter into philosophical inquiry and risk what Saba called heresy. Ultimately, each person must look into the whole issue themselves and make their decision. Based on deep meditation and prayer. Believing in a miracle is personal choice. The truth will not be fully revealed to the whole world until the coming of our Righteous Messiah. May it come speedily and in our days.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 6:06:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"so first of all, to call the petek a childish prank can only be done if one has not delved into the deeper meanings of the petek, because once one begins to understand these depths he will understand that this "childish prank" could not be pulled off by anyone living in Tiberias at that time, i.e. no one could have written the contents of that letter"


the contents of the letter from heaven

"Very hard it was for me to decend to you, my precious student, to tell you that I enjoyed your service, and about you I have said, "My fire will burn untill the comming of Moshiac" be strong and courageous in your service.

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman

and with this I will reveal to you a secret and it is. full and heaped up from end to end (Pey Tzadi Pey Tzadi Yod Key)
and with strong service you will understand and a sign is, on Yud zayin of the month of Tamuz, they will say you are not fasting.

two simple things that I noticed. 1) Rebbe Nachman writes "It was very hard to desend to you" Much of the Rebbe's Torah teaches of the desent of the Tzadik to retrive lost sparks. It's a very Rebbe Nachman thing to say. "My fire will burn until the coming of Moshiac" is actually a quote from Rebbe Nachman's books. Note: that the Rebbe's books were not in circulation at all in Tiberius at the time, in fact any one reading them had their very lives in danger. there are many more secrets that one can find that have clear references to the Rebbe's Torah.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 10:41:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Saba said someone who openly denies the miracle of the petek was not standing at Mount Sinai, has no kashrus to Breslov, the Torah or anything.

This is false, and if you claim he said it, you are making a bad service for R' Odesser, because it will mean that his other statements can be as well not reliable.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 10:57:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Observer: You should say "I wish I was zoche to do hafatza with the same mesirus mefesh and simcha that you people do

Bad hafotzo is a pretty damaging thing. Nanachs cause Breslov to be scorned by others because of their radical views which really aren't compatible with Breslov itself. So people come around and ask "Are all Breslovers that crazy/conceited/despising everyone else" etc.? Does really Breslov causes this, or something foreign to the spirit of Breslover Chasidus? I personally think that the later is the case. The Rebbe stressed derech eretz, emunas chachomim and anovo. And respect to tzadikim was always a trait of Breslover chasidim.

But there always will be people who like unrestricted, wild, anarchistic approach and can't tolerate any guidance. So they decided to call this Breslov, because historically we don't have only one manhig who can prevent it. And afterward someone says - don't tear it apart or something the like. Does is sound reasonable?

Nekudoys toyvos are one thing. Nanchs are sincere - this is good. But are sincere in bad and invalid views, which causes them to do bad. Fixing the problem is needed as well looking with a positive view. If one ignores it and only says - let it be, it will "dissolve" with time - it will not dissolve. It will only get worse.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:09:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

behaltener

I'm glad you wrote, I was beginning to miss our correspondence. I will not respond to what you wrote because I really don't want to argue, I just needed to speak my peace so I said what I said. I did want to address another issue with you. I wonder if you will respond. You have said a couple of times before regarding the authenticity of the Petek. It has "no relevance to Breslov" and "I don't care". I, as a Na Nach Breslover think that anything that Rebbe Nachman does is relevant to Breslov. Even a simple gesture with his hand, I would think would have relevance to Breslov. He's the Rebbe, The Saviour of the world,(Yachker pundricks is not the saviour) I think that if he (Rebbe Nachman) wrote just one line on a piece of paper it would be relevant to Breslov. Yeah, and I would care. I'm just that kind of guy. You, I think you do care. I would think any Breslover would care, anyone that loves the Rebbe would care. Also, since you are arguing so much, I dare say that you do care. I think that you should just admit it. You care about the Rebbe, and believe that everything the Rebbe does is relevant to Breslov. and If you say "I don't care if it's true or not" or "It has no relevance" you discredit yourself as a real Breslover before our readers. For a real Breslover would care about anything that the Rebbe does and find it really relevant to Breslov. That is, the Rebbe's Breslov.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:17:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Although, it is true, personal passion and personal spiritual experiences, are not enough to believe in a miracle but the word of a Tzadik like Saba and the letter of R. Moshe Feinstein really is enough.

Someone's belief is not a proof. This is an elementary axiom of Halocho. You can't even use ruach hakoydesh to bring proofs in order to establish whether something happened or not.

Note, that you again are trying to bring Reb Moyshe Feinshtein as some kind of proof saying that his words are proving the miracle. Did you say above that petek doesn't need endorsement? You did. So don't bring such "proofs".

Did someone tell to Reb Moyshe that the petek was written by those who played a joke on R' Odesser? No. He didin't know about it. So why are you saying, as if he didn't hold it to be written by someone?

Yoseph is right in general. The issue of petek is irrelevant, and arguments about it are really pointless. And it doesn't worth to even spend time on it, otherwise, but it only happens when you come around and start making christian-like statement about "believe in petek or be an apikores".

It has a benefit though, as I said above, since when people see such radical views explained by you, they see that they aren't inherently related to Breslov.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:24:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Also, since you are arguing so much, I dare say that you do care.

Surely I care about the Rebbe and the Rebbe's zach. That's why I didn't stay passive.

I don't hold the petek to be authentic, that's why I said it is not relevant to Breslov. However the usage of this issue by Nanachs causes harm to Breslov in general (especially when used as a base for pegam in emunas chachomim and calling everyone else except Nanachs - "sheker" or "apikorsim" or the like). That's why I care, and found it necessary to be involved in discussion. Understand, that such views cause harm to the Rebbe's zach, and if you care about the Rebbe, you should be considerate.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:27:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"Someone's belief is not a proof."

It's not about proof. The Petek is it's own proof

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:39:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Reb Moshe's Letter is proof or Saba's authenticity as an awesome Jew, regardless of what he said. I think that it is clear where I stand, It is not neccessary to continue with you for now. Live your life, be happy, do a little dance, say Na Nach or something. I'm sorry your suffering so much, I was only trying to help. I'm afraid that if we talk to much more we will argue. In my opinion we have two different religions. I'm OK with that.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:44:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

In my opinion we have two different religions. I'm OK with that.

If you base your faith on the Petek as a "foundation of religion" than your are for sure right. So I see no point in arguing, since Yiddishkeit is based on something else.

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:54:00 PM EDT, Blogger Sarah said...

G-D has granted us free will. We can use our free will to believe in the Petek or not. I personally believe the Petek is a heavenly letter from R'Nachman to R'Odesser containing secrets to our redemption. If you believe it isn't then one of us is wrong. If I am wrong then I was a fool all along, If you are wrong then you were holding back the redemption of the whole world. Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman

 
At September 13, 2008 at 11:59:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

My yidishkeit is with Saba, yours is with someone else. We like to print Rebbe Nachman books, you like to do something else. whatever, I'm at peace with this whole thing, I'm afraid of wasting my time, It's been good, we will publish much of this dialog in a book and make it available for people to make their own decisions. Thanks for the juice to write. Really, I have no bad feelings, I hope this is just a misunderstanding on your part.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:04:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

S.
I could not have said it better myself. Really, I don't mind being a fool this way. It's what Rebbe Nachman wants us to be. "A foolish Nation" it says in the Torah, Rebbe Nachman says that it is good to be a fool in this way, Throw away our Chochmahs and believe. King David is called Hashem's Jester (fool). Call me a fool, but I just believe.

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:39:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"If you base your faith on the Petek as a "foundation of religion" than your are for sure right."

"The foundation of all Yidishkeit is attachment to the Tzadik, to love him and be called by his name."

-RABBI Shmuel Horowitz

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:22:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H
saba-noon: with respect for your words and dedication!
Yosef: Thank you for your words. If I may, I would like to continue the reply saba-noon already began:
As a preface, I would like to say that from what I have merited to learn – all is a matter of faith. We are all to look at "ma rabu Maasecha", to study Hashem's Torah and the world He Created, and in the end we reach the point that we realize we are nothing and can never understand Hashem's Infinity. In the end, it is all a matter of faith. I once heard HaRav Arush shlit"a brilliantly say that even the atheist is a "man of faith", in other words he too cannot "prove" 100% there is (Chas v'chalila!) no G-d, and so his "ideology" too is based only on the faith that there is no G-d…
That said, I would like to agree with you that my reference to Moshe and all the miracles of Yitziyat Mitzrayim and Har Sinai was inappropriate, certainly for the point I was trying to make. I was speaking rather that if one has an understanding of the relationship between a disciple and 'his' Tzaddik', he will understand that that relationship does not include a selective acceptance of the teachings of that Tzaddik. Many people seem to grasp that Saba was a Tzaddik, but then say that the petek is "nonsense". The point I was trying to make is that anyone who is a talmid of Saba cannot possibly say they are both connected to the Tzaddik but have "reservations" in regard to what Saba taught about the petek.

In regard to why it would have been impossible for anyone in Tiberias at that time to write such a note: as saba-noon already explained, at that time there were NO Breslov Chassidim living in Tiberias (and there were no colorful NaNach graffiti on the walls, and there were no Nanachs driving through on their van bringing Rebbe Nachman's words and filling hearts with music and joy!) and Breslov was considered totally taboo.
Obviously it is impossible here to make an in-depth study into the petek, so I will mention only two issues that may be true "food for thought":
One of the lines is a clear reference to the printing and distribution of Rebbe Nachman's books. Now in Tiberias (and as far as I know no where in what was then Eretz Yisrael) surely NO Breslov books were being printed! So only if the one who claimed at some point to have written the note was a prophet – how could he have possibly known that in the end Rav Yisrael's (Saba) foremost achievement was to be the printing of Rebbe Nachman's books, emphasizing always the need for the Tzaaddik's books to be in every Jewish home! The suggestion of such is simply ridiculous at the time the petek appear – unless someone really wants to claim that that yeshiva student was speaking out of divine prophecy and 'knew' that 100 years later Breslev chassidut would be so greatly revived and Breslov books would be available on street corners all over Israel and reaching many many countries of the Diaspora. And for the information of anyone reading this, there is no doubt even amongst Breslov mainstream who are not accepting of Nanachs that Rav Yisrael did more than anyone to publish and publicize Rebbe Nachman's books.

The second issue is the signature on the petek "Na Nach Nachma Nachman m'Uman). Again, please remember that Breslov chassidut was taboo in Tiberias at the time. The fact that Saba 'discovered' Rebbe Nachman at all was a miracle in the small closed community of Tiberias at that time! So how is it possible that a young yeshiva student there was so well-versed in the teachings of Rebbe Nachman that he knew Torah 8 of the second part of Likutei Moharan that he could create a signature that reflected the teaching of the single, double, triple and quadruple song mentioned in the Tikkunei Zohar and revealed in its inner dimension in this teaching of Rebbe Nachman. This Torah is actually the last teaching Rebbe Nachman gave in this earthly world, but again, in the Likutei Moharan it is not placed in a special place in the book making it even more improbable that this yeshiva student would have any inkling to its existence leave alone its kabbalistic implications.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:33:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

and even though i have written too much already there is one thing i feel obligated to add. the nanachs spreading Rebbe Nachman's message, coming here and there at all hours of the day, with unbelieve messirut nefesh, are accepted with smiles even by the most distant. (and the joy they spread is so sincere, and this is particularly to be respected for they financially have almost nothing, and whatever they do have is given to the hafatza they do!)
i do not think it is fair to say that they bring scorn or criticism upon Breslov, actually quite the opposite, their joy and deciation is so honest and simple that many a distant Jew is brought to think 'i want to understand better the eseence, the source of such simple faith' and come a step closer to HASHEM. and too many who are Jews of faith but distant to chassidut in general and Rebbe Nachman in particular are brought one step closer through the dedicated work and inspiring avoda of the Nanachs (even in my own family this happened in a most amazing way, when someone who was distant to Breslov and certainly the Nanachs met them by the Kotel and came home with the full set of Likutei Halachot and has been consistently learning from them ever since!) -- so please keep allthis in mind!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 8:47:00 AM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Gita-
Thank you for your response. The nature of your comments, as someone who DOES believe in the petek, has been distinct from others in this thread. Whether I agree in the end of the day about the petek or not, I think that you seem to be relating to it as a "sam chayim" in any case. I'm glad to see that you are writing positive things and not coming to attack or belittle Jews who don't believe in the petek. Also, most of what you have written are beautiful themes that I have always found in Rabbi Nachman's Torah in general.
Your first point- about faith- I think you're right. If someone was a student of Rabbi Odesser in his life, and he was mamash their Rav, then it makes sense that they would believe him about his petek. Now it is important to remember that even tzadikim can make mistakes, and that it wouldn't necessarily make them any less of a tzadik. It's clear that in any case though, even if someone doesn't believe in the petek, that the positive aspects of Na Nach are reflections of what an inspiring teacher Rabbi Odesser must have been.
For someone to have faith in Rabbi Odesser about the petek, that's cool. Many of the comments made in this thread, in the name of Na Nach, however, are extremely troubling if that's what people really believe (i.e. non-Na Nachs are sheker, apikorsim, etc.). To suggest that the avodas Hashem of G-d fearing Jews is somehow "pasul" because they don't believe in the divine origin of the petek is extremely troubling. And as I said before, there is no comparison with faith in Torah min HaShamayim. Here, there is no force of logic behind it, as with the Torah. Here it is just a matter of whether we believe a miracle happened or not, with no witnesses. Many other religions are based on such occurences, such as Islam, Xtianity and many of it's sub-sects, countless cults and other religions. What sets Judaism apart is that there was a national revelation. There is nothing else comparable to that in the entire world. So again, there can be no comparison between the two. Accordingly, there is no equivalence between a Jew who doesn't believe in the petek and someone who is a kofer in the Torah, G-d forbid.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with believing in the petek. The only issue would be if that belief included aspects that conflicted with the Torah in general. Nothing you have said does, from what I see, but other comments here have. Many of these comments have also been against the teachings of Rabbi Nachman a'h.
As far as a reference to hafatza in the petek, I didn't see any, at least in the translation provided by Saba-noon. Maybe I'm missing something?
If there was a refence to hafatza in the petek, or to publishing the Rebbe's books, I don't think that the fact that Rabbi Odesser established a keren for publishing the sefarim later in his life retroactively proves anything about the petek. It just shows how deeply inspired Rabbi Odesser was by the petek, that he took it seriously and tried to fulfill what he felt it was telling him to do.
Even if the petek was a prank, this is still a very good effect that came about through Rabbi Odesser's tmimus. While I agree up to a certain extent with what bahaltener said that there can be such a thing as "bad hafatza", I agree that the current wide availability of the Rebbe's sfarim is a giant toeles for Klal Yisrael. I am in agreement with you about that. I think it's wonderful in it's own right.
Point number 2, about the signature "Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman M'Uman", that it contains kabbalistic significance and also reflects deep knowledge of Likutei Moharan, here also I don't think this is very strong proof. Even though to take the name of something and write it out that way does have kabbalistic significance, it is also the kind of thing someone could write without knowing any of that, if it was a prank. Another possibility is that, if it was a prank, that one of the pranksters may have heard Rabbi Odesser saying it to himself at some point (presumably with the kabbalistic significance in mind). He was after all deeply immersed in the study of Breslov Chassidus at the time. He learned from Rabbi Karduner a"h, right? This is an important factor in the argument that no one else at the time in Tiberias was familiar with Breslov chassidus. Anyone who Rabbi Odesser, such as the other guys in his yeshiva, would know things at least that he himself talked about, which I assume he did a lot.
Point number 3. As I mentioned before, I agree with you in general. Certainly those aspects of what the Na Nachs are doing that you mentioned, are very good. If the attitude that all other manhigei Breslov are "sheker", and that people who don't believe in the petek are apikorsim, etc., are part of the hashkafa though, that is a problem. I believe that that is what bahaltener was referring to when he mentioned "bad hafatza".
That said, b'ikar it is absolutely true that they are still doing a lot of good for many people. I'd like to see the good for what it is, and troubling things for what they are. One of the most important things the Rebbe taught us is that good and bad are distinct, that good is real, and that the bad, while needing to be dealt with, doesn't take away from the goodness alongside it.
I think that that is probably why Rav Kenig said when asked, when he was ill (he should be healthy for many long years, ken yhi ratzon), that were he able to do so, he would dance with the Na Nachs. I am sure he saw amazing good in them, even if he didn't agree completely about everything they believe.
Thank you again for your idealistic and positive comments. And thank you for reading and responding to my comment before in a sincere manner.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 10:02:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

if anyone really wants to find out if the petek is true and saba is the tsaddik ha'emes of this dor until moshiach, there is only one way. tefilla. cry out to Hashem that He will be megaleh to them the truth. and be willing to accept the truth whatever it may be.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 10:09:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

Yosef: i cannot begin to thank you for the great gift you have given me, a new and beautiful insight to my connection to Saba - "sam chayim". really, i thank you very very much.
i don't know how i even got into this "debate" over the petek - something i always shy away from, mainly because Rebbe Nachman teaches me with every word found in all the Breslover books the truth of peace, that all flows from the One Holy Source, and so disunity amongst Jews is hurtful; though I guess a true sign that Moshiach - please G-d - is on his way...
in thanks for your intelligent, inspiring and full-of-chesed messages, i would like to recommend one thing to you and to all those here - to read in Hebrew or English Saba's book of letters, Ibey HaNachal (Blossoms of the Spring). Put all the discussion here aside, and just read each letter with a faithful heart. i am sure you will find great joy and strength in the letters which brings the reader so much closer to Hashem, and to a true connection with Rabbenu Rebbe Nachman. I am sure you will find there the reason why Saba's words are an inspiration of true Ahavat Yisrael and bitul la Tzaddik.
shavua tov, and once again, thank you for all your input and your willingness to listen and even learn - and surely, through this you gave us a great lesson in derech eretz and love for chassidut as well!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EDT, Anonymous true nanach said...

Rabbeinu says about saba. alecha amarti "ha'esh sheli tukad ad biyas hamoshiach". it is clear from the petek that saba is the true talmid of rabbeinu and that we obviously must follow him, and if he says stay away from all other mefuramim, then that is what must do. so a true breslover must find out if the petek is true, and if true to follow saba completely. the main way to find out if the petek is true is through tefilla.

but accepting the petek and saba does not mean one has found the whole truth. ones search for the tsadik ha'emes never ends. the petek is old news. the kibbuts by saba, thats where the ultimate truth is. uman's over. the true kibbuts is by saba in yerushalayim. thats where one must put his focus. until one has found the true significance in going to saba's kever, he hasn't found anything.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 11:25:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

there is not enough room by saba's kever to make a big kibutz

 
At September 14, 2008 at 11:45:00 AM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

It's been a while since I posted comments here, in part because the matter was in the good hands of Saba Noon and Gita and others, but mostly because there was nothing new being discussed. Thanks to Gita humility the comments started to revolve on giving and showing respect, but not so much new information. Enough was already said and shown where to find out, that any person of minimul intelligence who wanted the truth could find it easily, and it can still be found, simply read the comments from the beginning and or visit nanach.net and other sources.
There were a few points that were stated recently that I don't think were expressed clear enough. The Saba said that the miracle of the Petek was the greatest miracle ever, so someone asked that the giving of the Tora was done in front of millions, whereas the Petek was given to one person. The answer was given that the Luchos are no longer with us, where as the Petek is, anyone can get a compy of it and see for themselves first hand the handwriting and the message from Rabbi Nachman! Anyone today amounts to trillions.
Yosef said that tzadikim can be mistaken - this is very true, but no on something so vital and critical that it form and takes the main purpose of that Tzadiks life. The Saba based his whole life on publicizing the Petek and Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, so it forbiden and lunacy to say that the Saba was a big tzadik bla bla bla but he made a mistake about the Petek. This seems to me as extemely clear and ironclad, that's why I kept it short, if you need further elaboration, give the word.
A few more proofs about the authenticy of the Petek (not that that is what's preventing people from accepting it).
1) no one knew that the Saba ate on 17th of Tamuz - point of fact is that everyone, especially the famous letz, were all still fast asleep, and there is no way they could have found out. The Petek knew about this!
2) Rab Mottele Slonimer examined all the members of the Yeshiva, especially the letzim, and came to the conclusion that none of them even knew anything about the Petek!
3) The Saba said that if he would reveal the meaning of just two words of the Petek he would annul the persons free choice. There were other such statement the Saba said in regard to other huge secrets hidden in the Petek. So how did these originate from a letz?
4) why would anyone sign the letter MayUman - from Uman - when everyone knew Rabbi Nachman as from Breslov.
5) who knew the name of the angel PZPZYH? who knew that this is the angel in charge of the Shofar on Rosh Hashuna - which is Rabbi Nachmans' main day!
6) who knew that Rabbi Nachman had said, and as brought down in the Breslov books in Yiddish - My fire will burn till the coming of Mushiach?
7) how did the Saba just happen to open the right book to the right place at the right time?!

These were in addition to several other proofs previously mentioned. It seems clear to me that it takes more faith to believe that the Petek wasn't from Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman than to accept the simple straightforward way.

The importance of accepting the Petek is the importance of realizing that there is Divine Providence, and Rabbi Nachman has provided for all our needs. We must be persistent to adhere to Rabbi Nachman's teachings, and know and believe that this is the complete matter of Redemption!
There was a time when holy people might not have been fully accountable for not recognizing Rabbi Nachman and Breslov - Rabbi Nussun discusses this in Likutay Halachos - how we occasionaly find someone who really seems to be honest and rightious and yet is not Breslov? Rabbi Nussun explains that just like G-d created gentiles and Jews, which is a matter of Am Segula - that is above our intelligence why and how that was decided, so to the matter of who merits to be Breslov! (Thus according to the Kuzari who makes a hiearchy of 5, according to Rabbi Nussun we can make it 6). However in today's day and age, it is no longer possible for a person who is sincere, truthful, and devout to not realize the need and the supremecy of Rabbi Nachman. Thus if one is found to deny the Petek, we have serious doubts on his foundations of belief and honesty.
Those that claim they are Bresov yet do not believe in the Petek, have already been shown the truth in the above comments. All the members of Pincus Chaver accepted the Petek, anyone following the teachings of Rabbi Nachman will obviously believe in Miracles, will believe in the strength of Rabbi Nachman, will believe the strongest Baal Mesora of Breslov, and will on their own conclusions realize that it holy and critical to spread Rabbi Nachmans name in the fashion it is signed in the Petek, single double triple quadruple, Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, on their own right they will want to do exactly what the Nachmanim are doing - paying less and less attention to halachic stringencies and more and more attention to promotig G-d and G-dliness in the world, teaching and spreading Rabbi Nachmans teachings in the world, dancing and singing as much as possible and more, and what ever else they see such people so committed to the Emes and Rabbainu they will want to do even if they don't understand!
So if someone is saying he's Breslov and he claims that the Petek is not relevant - chances are that he has the same stance in his general morals C"V.
But fear not, it is very easy to say Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, and this will lead to great healling and and mending!
NNNNM!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 11:59:00 AM EDT, Blogger Biraishis said...

Let's go back to the basics - Biraishis- Chazal - our sages - they teach that before G-d created the world he consulted with them - that is with the souls of the tzadikim - givald!!!
Rabbi Nachman was one of those Tzadikim - givald!!!
The world was created with Ten Sayings which Coralel the Ten Commandments - which coralel the Ten Songs which Rabbi Nachman revealed for the General Rectification - givald!!!
The Nanach guys seem to really appreciate this, and they seem to have really shown their stuff - givald!!!
Hey Biraishis is a hidden statement - Rabbi Nachman said he is Biraishis - Rosh Bayis- givald!!!
Ok so now bahten or some other guy is going to accuse me of saying I'm, well I didn't say it and I'm not going to, stick with the Petek - givald!!!
Love all of you!
givald - biraishis!!!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:13:00 PM EDT, Anonymous bresluv said...

Bresluv did his homework, as the nice man said, and he has decided in favor of the Petek!

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:24:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

i pray saba-noon and naanaach and true naach will agree with me - anyone who will come with an innocent heart to the kever of Saba will know the truth of Saba and his words...

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:32:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

The Saba promised that whoever comes to his tzion will get whatever they need BiSimcha - so heres the story - my first visit to the Saba's tzion I'm trying to say the Tikun Haklali with emotion but I find myself gigling. Lated I was having a long conversation with my brother-in-law who is a very 'prestiged' Rosh Yeshiva of Alexander of B.P. - MF, in any event I thought my experience was note worthy - strange how you go to the tzion of a tzadik hoping to cry to Hashem and instead find so much joy you are bursting with laughter - so he tells me - Simcha, you don't remember what the Saba said, and I say no, what did he say, and he tells me and he tells me where to find it (at the beginning of Shma Yisroel)- all this time I was sending him stuff about Nanach not expecting him to read it, in the end not only did he read it but had his own interpretation! Cast your bread....
Many litvishe bochurim who find themselves attracted and pulled to the holy tzion of the Saba make rikudim - dances there!
Everyone should pray for my brother in law that he merit to break away to the EMES - and say in his zchus Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:36:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

naanaach said: So if someone is saying he's Breslov and he claims that the Petek is not relevant...

Anyone who does not believe in the Petek is NOT a Breslover but rather a Karliner. This according to the Saba who said, if you believe a Karliner over a Breslover that makes you a Karliner. So I ask of all of you to please refer to Bahaltner and anyone who shares his views as Karliners because that is the truth (no offense Bahaltner, this is not an insult just putting things in prospective) refering to them as Breslovers is an embarrassment to our Chassidus. R'Nachman did say that one day the whole world will be Breslov, so as a real Breslover I am waiting patiently to greet everyone including Karliners and Misnagdimin to the Chassidus that will bring the Redemption which is the one and only Breslov. Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:50:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

The possibility also occurred to me of Rabbi Odesser having written the petek himself. I have heard that later in his life he told people, "I am Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman M'Uman". If he believed he was a gilgul of the Rebbe, or something along those lines, he could have written the letter himself. He may have been blacking out at the time. Phenomena like this is not so unusual.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 12:58:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true nanach said...

gita, you are a true na nach, but its not enough just to come to saba. one must be a part of his kibuts too on rosh hashana. i made this mistake last year that i was by his kever erev rosh hashana but not with the kibbuts by the kosel on rosh hashana. this year be'ezrat Hashem i will correct my mistake and be zoche to a year of true geulah. na nachs, wake up! everyone knows the petek is true. but not everyone knows about the kibbuts. this year be by the kibbuts in yerushalyim. uman is for the old breslovers who follow the mefursamim. Rabbeinu himself is by saba. you can only know this through tefilla hisbodedus and actually being there. chizku ve'amtsu na nachs and all breslovers who have yet been miskasher to saba yisra'el na nach nachma nachman me'uman.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:10:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

To "Anonymous",
What, in your opinion, does the petek change about Breslov Chassidus if you are going to pasul other Breslov chasidim who don't hold of it? Rabbi Nachman left books full of his teaching and guidance for everyone. What does this petek come to change exactly?
Other than saying this mantra of the Rebbe's name, what is the chiddush? It's the same Torah, the same Rebbe, the same 613 mitzvos. Is it not?
Even Rabbi Nachman himself, one thing that was so unique about his teachings was how they included the whole Torah, excluding nothing. As he said "I'm going to take you on a new path. Really, it's the ancient path of our forefathers, and at the same time it's entirely new". He created new spiritual paths, for the same Torah and avodas Hashem of our ancestors. He didn't change halacha, he didn't contradict Chazal, he didn't have any problem acknowledging tzadikim who weren't his followers.
What does this petek change that you could be making such radical statements?
Chazal say, "Kol mi sh'm'chapays mumim, b'mumo hu m'chapays". [I hope I am quoting it right] "Everyone who looks for blemishes in others, it is his own blemish he sees".
If you are saying that you hold of a different religion than the rest of us, fine. If you claim that this is Judaism, you have no business making these kinds of radical statements. Breslov Chassidus is just Judaism, seen through a healthy lens, the lens of the tzaddik (Rabbeinu). Rabbi Nachman didn't come to change the Torah, G-d forbid.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:17:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true nanach said...

to anonymous. one only has to be by saba erev rosh hashana. rosh hashana the kibbuts is by the kosel. there, there is plenty of room for everyone.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:26:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true nanach said...

yosef. the petek doesnt change anything. it just tells us that the one we have to follow is saba, as opposed to all other breslov manhigim. he is the true talmid of Rabbeinu. this is what rav nachman is telling us clearly. and whatever saba says we must listen too (see torah 123 likutei moharan).

how you can even suppose saba wrote the petek shows how unstraight your thinking is. saba was a tsadik and true breslover plain and simple. tsadikim dont lie or mislead. they are the straightest and simplest of people. it is clear from the story he did not write the petek. i suggest you follow the eitsos of rabbeinu to purify your mind and heart and go to the kever of saba. if you go with a straight and humble heart, you will know the truth. for the truth itself is straight simple and humble and only one who is straight simple and humble can hear it.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:35:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

I didn't suggest he was trying to deceive anybody, if you check what I actually wrote. I also don't know what you do with Rabbi Nachman's statement: "I will make you into groups and groups" (Chayei Moharan, 319). You can read here (http://nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_real.html) for a less close minded perspective of why there may be different groups within Breslov.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:39:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

saba-noon In your books you'll be trying to hide problems of Nanachs in regards to emunas chachomim. I'm not trusting what you are going to print. Here however anyone can see you open statements, which show you perverted approach to Yiddishkeit.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:48:00 PM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

true nanach - as a woman i assume being part of the kibutz is not a possibility. but i assure you my heart is

 
At September 14, 2008 at 1:54:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Saba-noon,
Please do not publish any of my comments, unless you include them in their entirety. I do not want them edited or abridged by anyone other than myself. I do not want anything I've said distorted.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 2:07:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Yosef: Nanachniks today aren't uniform also, and another very problematic trend there was voiced here - i.e. those who proclaim R' Odesser a new Rebbe and are going to him for kibbutz. This pretty clearly isn't Breslov anymore at all.

Gita: While you at least converse in respectful manner, you didn't disagree (and multiple times voiced an agreement) to your Nanach colleagues here regarding the serious problems which were discussed (like lack of emunas chachomim and others, see above). I don't think those issues are accidental, on the opposite - they appear to be the integral components of Nanachs. So it becomes doubtful, if there is any point in trying to show them what that problems are. They want these problems, they are the base of their faith as it was voiced here. You didn't disagree with that.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 2:13:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Saba-noon: I also prohibit you to publish these dialog in any changed form, taken out of the context. I perceive your methods as sectarian/missionary like, and you should be treated accordingly.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 2:41:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice to see the Karliner is explaining Breslov again. Maybe you should leave that to the Na Nachs the true Breslovers of today. Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman

 
At September 14, 2008 at 3:00:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

to the Na Nachs the true Breslovers of today

After all you said here, it should be pretty obvious, that Nanachs "left for themselves", but not for Breslov. Be brave enough to admit the truth.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 3:22:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true nanach said...

yosef. you use your chochma too much coming up with theories how saba may have written the petek. his whole life he claimed he received the petek from rebbi nachman. even when he said "ani na nach etc" this is a very deep statement and in no way means his is rav nachman himself. it means he is totally one with rabbeinu. he always saw himself as the talmid of rabbeinu, not rav nachman himself. as i said earlier, your mind is not straight (like everyone in this generation including na nachs) and that is why you cant just accept saba's account simply as it was. maybe you are afraid of what people might think of you or what changes you may have to make in your life, i dont know, but a true breslover searches for the truth whatever it is and whatever it may be. take rabbeinus advice and accept things with a pure and simple heart. stop trying to be a chacham. daven with simplicity and humility and you will soon see truth clearly and brightly and remove all confusing doubts. behatslacha breslover.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 3:39:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true nanach said...

bahaltener. you have totally misunderstood na nach. nach nach is not a group or sect or anything. infact there is no such thing as na nach. it is just a made up label to class people. there is only one thing and that is to find and attach oneself to the true tsadik/moshiach of the dor. it is clear now that rabbeinu was the true tsadik in his dor, but it was not so clear in his time. only a handful of people really 'found' rav nachman. even just knowing who the true tsadik is does not mean you have found him. rav noson speaks alot about this in likutei halachos how one must continually search for the tsadik. the main thing is to be mekusher to the tsadik, so you too may become a true tsadik like rav nachman was. to do so one has to be mekabel from his talmidim. so one has to find the talmidim in his dor to be able to attach himself to them who were themselves attached to rabbeinu himself. who is the talmid in our dor. arush, berland, shik, kenig? who should we attach ourselves to. saba received a petek clearly stating he is the talmid 'hayakar' and rabbeinu's light will burn on him till the moshiach comes. there are many many secrets hidden in the petek when you have been zoche to accept it with a pure and simple heart. saba was a tsadik plain and simple. nobody questions this. he was a true breslover. noone quetions this. he gives an account that the only explanation is that he received the petek from shamayim, or c/v he forged it himself or lied, (about it being locked in his room and the voice in his head telling him to open the first sefer he finds). if you are a breslover you must accept his account and not a non-breslover who min hastam is just trying to hide the light of the true tsadik from the world.
so if saba is the true talmid then the only way we can become mekushar to rabbeinu is through him and anyone who is against him means they are a mefursem shel sheker who rabbeinu so warned against being connected to. so it is down to you to clarify the truth and find the true talmid of rabbeiny and tsadik hador. dont pay attention to na nachs or anyone. eveyone is confused. just search and cry out to Hashem to find the true tsadik.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 3:48:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true breslover said...

gita. you are right. but even if you dont come to the kibbuts, it is still important to know what the truth is. if you are maried and your husband comes to the kibbuts, then you may probably also come. if you feel like it. the main thing is to have simple faith in the tsadik. and be miskasher oneself to the tsadik and his talmidim (where appropiate) to purify ones heart and mind that he may come to serve Hashem with a pure and complete heart. amen ken yehi ratson.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 5:00:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Dear karliner,
Never did I once think of publishing your opinions. Only, ours. You can go ahead and publish all your lengthy theories and "proofs" or lack of "proofs" or whatever you want about your opinion. We publish our views. None of your words will be published.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 5:03:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Belief in Saba is Amunas Chachamim. Saba is a chochum (as testified in the letter of R' Moshe) and Na Nach have amunah in Saba. This is the bigest "problem" you find in Na Nach?

 
At September 14, 2008 at 6:33:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true breslover said...

saba-noon. what irony. they all discredit saba (a true breslover) when it comes to the petek believing instead a misnaged to breslov. and then they claim na nachs have no emunas chachamim. they are the ones who have no emunah as they dont beleive saba who was adamant the petek came from shamayim and no human could have written it. na nachs have the ultimate emunas chachamim as they are the only ones who believe in rabbeinu's true talmid. we live in an upside down world.

 
At September 14, 2008 at 7:05:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

true Breslover:
Everything you say is true. We are living in the world of the "Exchanged Children" This is way I really grew a lot from this dialog on this forum. I really made a very deep berur on what it is that I believe as a Na Nach Breslover. The Irony of the whole thing is evident on every negative thing that they say about Na Nach, anyone who truly seeks out all the facts and the truth from the depths of their hearts can see that everything that they say about Na Nach is really only true about themselves. (Not just this point) barook Hashem the we have Rebainu, that we have the Stories, that we have Saba and all the true tzadikim! Barook Hashem for Na Nach!! Notice that all the responses of truth (and sincere inquiries to the truth) are all well written and thought out, and lengthy, and all the opposition's answers are short, uninformed and based on their own opinion. I'm really happy that this happened. I really want people to come to this site and read all three sets of comments. I like everything that Na Nach says and everything the other side says only reveals their lack of simple faith, (or their lack of information)

 
At September 14, 2008 at 10:02:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Yoseph,
I feel that you have come into the discussion late and I don't know if you have read everything previously written that lead up to this.

I respect your words, for I detect sincerity in them. I will respect your wishes, I don't want to distort anyone's words, I only want to make the issues clear and the standing clear for everyone. both sides have made their positions clear.(though I feel the Na Nach's were a little more clear) There is no need for us to distort anyone's words. I just hope that these forums stay up on line for all to see.
I also want to acknowledge the honesty of the administration of this site in the way that as of this date they have not once taken any of my comments down nor have they changed my words, unlike other sites, where my words were removed. If they keep everyones words up as they were written then all the more good for them. I just wish this discussion was a little more organized and so make the issues more easily accessible to the public at large.
I also feel that what "a true Na Nach" said was very wise and well founded on the teachings of the Holy Rebbe, It is a very difficult berur to make with this whole issue around the Petek. I cried and screamed to Hashem a lot and had many many discussions until I came to this confidence. I also read the words of Saba Israel which I highly recommend, for ultimately Saba is the final word about the Na Nach take on the Petek and Ultimately everyone must make his choice. Choose well and thoughtfully and prayerfully. Even understanding all the facts is still not enough. The heart must be lit up. I even believed in the Petek but my heart was clogged. But as my friends said to me (before I was a Na Nach), don't worry Saba can do heart surgery. Based on the sincerity of your heart for Hashem and the light of the Rebbe, I bless you with a wonderful new year.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 1:26:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

Firstly i would like to 'second' saba-noon's gratitude to A Simple Jew who hosted this dialogue so fairly and openly - and so i would say - courageously.
Too, i think True Breslover's words should be what echoes in our hearts as Rosh Hashanah approaches: true breslover said..."the main thing is to have simple faith in the tsadik. and be miskasher oneself to the tsadik and his talmidim (where appropiate) to purify ones heart and mind that he may come to serve Hashem with a pure and complete heart. amen ken yehi ratson.". I sincerely pray that we all merit in our lives to yearn to mikasher ourselves to the Tzaddik and his true talmidim, that we merit to serve Hashem and strive to help any and all Jews grow in their attachment to Hashem Yitbarach with a simple and pure heart. Rabbenu teaches that only through the Tzaddik can we hope to do so. We must always be thankful to Hashem that in His Infinite Rachmanut He sent us the Tzaddik Yesod Olam to heal us and lead us to the path of teshuva in these very difficult and confusing times. To thank Hashem for His gift to us - Saba, Rav Yisrael Dov ber Odesser.
May you and all Beit Yisrael be blessed with a new year filled with blessing. May we all merit to hear the new song that will awaken and renew the world, because i think that even this short dialogue can be viewed as another face of just how weary and broken we are in this galut.
May we merit to work very very hard to attain sincerity of intention and vision. May we all recall, wherever we are on Rosh Hashannah, that Rabbenu Rebbe Nachman proclaimed that his main inyan is Rosh Hashannah. Ashreinu she zachinu!
p/s/ if i have offended any of the participants of this dialogue or its readers, slicha u'mechila. and i wish in particular to thank yosef who is striving very hard to find the truth of his heart; and to all the 'nanachs' who in their posts surely strengthened my faith and joy in their words of Saba.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 9:14:00 AM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

This is probably my last post in this thread.
My only purpose in posting was to demonstrate reasons why a normative Jew, or Breslover, is not obligated to believe in this petek.
I don't see any problem if a person does- it does not contradict the Torah to believe in it.
That said, this attitude of supremacy and exclusion, and insulting disregard for the rest of the Jewish world, and how easy it seems to be to posul everyone else who doesn't see things exactly the same way is not only disturbing, but it DOES contradict the Torah.
I find it very unfortunate that no one on the Na Nach side acknowledged my major point, which is that this attitude is not kosher. It is not Torah, it is not Breslov and it is certainly not Rabbi Nachman a'h.
Non Na Nachs are not "pasul". Non Breslovers are not "pasul". Non chasidim are not "pasul". This attitude is disgusting.
Some sefarim in the Breslov mesorah explain the concept of "tzadik ha-Emes" as the "nekudas emes BEIN hatzadikim", the point of truth between all the tzadikim.
There is nothing at all wrong, G-d forbid, with learning and deeply appreciating Torah taught by any kosher Jew. Rabbi Nachman greatly praised the publishing of new Torah books, insisting that his followers not take lightly any of them.
I am constantly coming across ideas from many great Rabbis, that is all in perfect harmony with the teachings of Rabbeinu. The amazing thing that Rabbi Nachman did is help us have the healthiest and most appropriate perspective on all of Torah, that our Yiddishkeit should be for the maximum toeles, benefit, for ourselves and for the world. Taken correctly, this helps us receive the entire Torah as a Sam Chayim, as spiritual medicine, instead of a Sam Maves, G-d forbid, where the Torah becomes poison (for example, when one posuls other people in the name of Torah, is inspired to yeush instead of teshuva by learning musar, etc).
A great deal of these beliefs you've expressed here are simply not kosher. This is not about the petek. As I said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with believing in the petek. If you believe that anyone who DOESN'T believe in the petek is "sheker", as you say, that is a serious problem. If you believe that the petek gives you permission to condemn tzaddikim, speak lashon hara, and insult the kavod of the rest of the Jewish people who do not share your beliefs, THAT is sheker.
That is my main point. I would be pleased if you would take it to heart, especially as we approach Rosh Hashana, when we will all be judged by Hashem for the coming year.
As a parent, there is not much, B'H, my children do that makes me genuinely angry. But if they hurt each other, or act indifferent or cruel to each other, I do get genuinely upset. I can only assume it is the same with Avinu Sh'BaShamayim.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 10:10:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Yoseph, thank you for posting, I think that you have a genuine point and I believe that there is a misunderstanding. I want to make things clear exactly what I believe the Na Nach stance is on this important issue is.

It is one thing to not believe in the miracle of the Petek. A person who does not believe I have stated before might be a kosher Jew and might even be a bit of a Tzadik. Though those that OPENLY OPPOSE and insist that this is not true, that this could not have happened are in a different category. There could be many reasons why a person does not believe in the petek. The whole issue around it is very mysterious and delves into many deep parts of the Jewish heart the more that one contemplates the issues. I have already said this many times on this site. The only problem that I have with this site is that they openly says that the Petek is not real and when we say that it is impossible to emperically prove of disprove it they insist that it did not happen as if to say that it cannot happen. You already admitted it is very weird for a Breslover to insist that this miracle is not real or to insist that Saba is not a Tzadik of the highest stature. (by discrediting his words and by calling the miracle of the Petek a joke) If they take back their insistence and say "We don't know" then I personally don't think that this statement is Sheker, If a person does not know, then they are at least being honest. But to openly publish opposition to something that you admitted cannot be known emperically, and to cast doubt into the hearts of kosher Jews, Yes, it is evil. I don't understand why you have a problem with this. I am not poseling you, for instance. You say that it is Kosher to believe, and that we don't know. That is fine. But to insist and say that such a thing as this miracle is not possible. (based on the word of a Karliner, a misnagged) is Kephirah. I hope I made it clear. Na Nach is not about Posuling people in general, only those that openly oppose. I have tried to make this clear many times throughout this forum.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 10:31:00 AM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

People who reject the petek outright probably do so when they see attitudes or actions that are divergent with normative Judaism, and the teachings of Rabbi Nachman, being associated with it. This is the same phenomena that happens with badly behaving "frum" Jews and the perception of secular Jews about Judaism.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 11:37:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

That might have a lot of truth to it. Still, a true seeker of the truth ignores the world of people.
The only thing different then "normative" Judaism and Na Nach is the issue of the Petek. Why are you trying to avoid the issue by saying that Na Nach people are different. Not only that, but most Na Nach's in their outright rejection of money and honor, and with their tremendous Missirat Nephesh for Rebainu actually have very good midot. (Not everyone with a Na Nach kipah is a Na Nach). Regardless of these issues the issue of the Petek is central and must be faced. Accepted or rejected.All these things have already been discussed in the previous forums. Don't look at one or two Na Nach's. If, due to my passion for truth I came our a bit rough, ignore me and go to Saba and check his words for yourself. Rejecting the Petek one rejects a great and very healing light and it is a great loss.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 11:52:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

This thread should be directed to the subject at hand, and not personal issues. But still I would like to make it very clear that in my personal understanding: the Holy Baal Shem Tov did all that he did in this earthly world through the teaching of his father - to fear no one but Hashem and to love any and all Jews no matter who they are. Rebbe Nachman surely taught to find the nekuda tova in every Jew, even, chalila, the rasha - teaching us that even the most distant Jew was still a Jew so no matter what this could be his nekuda tova. So for those who have asked, I am a talmida of Saba and everything good in my life I owe to him, to his "interferance" on my behalf. I do not chas v'shalom reject any Jew, and certainly not on the grounds that he does not accept the truth of the petek. On the other hand, if asked or in any case the opportunity arises, I am very happy to explain to any one the little I know of Saba and the great great truth and message of the petek, because that is such a great gift, to be able to share the most holy light of Saba and the petek with any and all Jews, for we are all brothers.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 12:11:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

I find it very unfortunate that no one on the Na Nach side acknowledged my major point, which is that this attitude is not kosher. It is not Torah, it is not Breslov and it is certainly not Rabbi Nachman a'h.
Non Na Nachs are not "pasul". Non Breslovers are not "pasul". Non chasidim are not "pasul". This attitude is disgusting.


Yosef: You said it very precisely
and to the point. Still such as Saba-noon are trying to deny that there is anything not kosher in their attitude using demagogic and sophistic statements. That's why I'm not going to continue any dialogs with such ones either. It simply is pointless. The obvious benefit of all this discussions above is, that those who'll come across them will see these open statements by Nanachs, which contradict Breslov, and Yiddishkeit in general. This will make people think twice, about these problems, which Nanachs don't usually want to publicize openly, in order to use the non awareness of people about these issues.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 2:53:00 PM EDT, Anonymous caring breslover said...

bahaltener and yosef. i'm not exactly sure what your problem is. no one ever said someone who doesn't believe in the petek is posul or a shakran. and if they did, they are posul and a shakran. all that true na nachs are saying is that the petek is a very great wonder and should be approached seriously and open minded by any true breslover. if indeed it is true that rabbeinu sent a petek to saba, shouldnt that be considered an incredible revelation. if rabbeinu himself signed his name, na nach etc and is merumaz in his torahs (8 and 67 tinyana) shouldn't that be taken with the utmost of sincerity. in the breslov world this should be considered one of the greatest events that took place in its history. and if some misnaged comes along and says he wrote it, isnt that the greatest sin a person could commit, to say that he wrote the petek that rebbeinu did?

i think you both should give the petek much more serious thought and put out of your minds any other influence wether na nach or not. saba says that the petek and the name na nach etc are the key to the geulah. if he is right, then that is something we must all take with the utmost of seriousness. no one pasuls a person for lack of belief. but if someone cheapens this most incredible maaseh between rabbeinu and his talmid hayakar, then that is simply a very great sin.

clear your minds out, connect to the tsadik, cry out to Hashem and rethink this whole issue out from scratch. this is too serious an issue to get wrong.

chizku ve'amtsu.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 3:16:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

caring breslover if indeed it is true that rabbeinu sent a petek to saba, shouldnt that be considered an incredible revelation.

Caring breslover, Chazal say, that there is a mitzvo to talk, when one wills to hear, and as well there is a mitzvo not to talk when one doesn't want. Such as Saba noon don't want to hear, so I'm not talking to them. But since you care, you want to hear.

Such a story definitely sounds like incredible, but you brought too many ifs. Since there are so many ifs, so what if the petek was not sent from the Rebbe? Than it is not an incredible revelation, but just someone's joke, and the whole Nanach ideology is built on misunderstanding.

In either case, since this issue is hanging only on ifs, this whole thing therefore has little relevance. And no one has a right based on these "ifs" to despise tzadikim, to posul other Yidden and to proclaim themselves "the only true [Breslovers]".

 
At September 15, 2008 at 3:24:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Sorry to do this to you, but once again may I remind everybody that my friends and I already answered clearly and effectively all the invective that bah. (and to a lesser degree y.) keep posting over and over again. My friends patience to keep answering, rewriting and explaining, is quite impressive, but even still it would be helpful (not to mention courteous) if they would read what we wrote! Is that too much to ask for?
The rejection of people who reject the Petek has alot to do with what is happening right here, these people even though sometimes they claim they are really searching and committed to the absolute truth, they just aren't. They don't even read what is written to them. Rabbi Nussun explains in Likutay Halachos that it is possible for there to be a sincere a holy person who is unaware of Rabbi Nachman, however he does not exonerate someone who was informed point blanc about Rabbi Nachman. Even if the way of explanation was faulty, any person who is serious about doing the right thing will do his homework and check out the facts for himself. People who not only do not check out the facts and furthermore don't even listen to what they are being told, yes - this is a strong negative point on their character and intent. That is not to say that we hate them or gave up on them, but it does say a great deal about them, and we must warn people of this. We do hope and pray to find and recognise them through their good points, but at the same time we will uphold the truth and the honor of G-d and His holy Tzadik, Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman!

 
At September 15, 2008 at 3:43:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

but once again may I remind everybody that my friends and I already answered clearly and effectively all the invective that bah. (and to a lesser degree y.) keep posting over and over again.

No, you may not remind it, since it is a lie. Nanachs here constantly avoided clearly answering the direct questions about the problems in Nanach ideology. The only answer drills down to - "Saba said it, we repeat it". This is not an answer at all. We a not tzodoykim to forget about the Toyro shebeal pe, and we have Chazal and Halocho.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 3:47:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

At the end of the day, the true story of the petek isn't something that can be proven one way or the other.
It doesn't make sense to me though, that something so critically important to the world, or to our yiddishkeit, would be given by Hashem is such a way. We already have the incredible teachings of Rabbi Nachman, and all of his eitzos. Anyone can read the books, or go to Uman.
If the petek is so critical, why would it be given in so such a way that there is no logical imperative to believe in it? It doesn't make sense that so much would depend on something that doesn't have compelling evidence one way or the other. I also don't see what is added by this one short letter that we don't already have from the Rebbe.
Again, I am not "anti" anyone here, only against attitudes that were expressed here that weren't right. I don't have a problem with the petek. It isn't about that. BTW, I especially appreciated Gita's last response to me. I don't see the petek, for example, as doing any harm when taken in that way. And if you feel it helps you, great. It just seems like a more subjective thing.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 4:20:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Yosef, first of all there is plenty of compelling proof to the authenticity of the Petek, we already posted in these comments alone about 10 of them. Second of all, we have also already explained that the main issue is Emuna - faith - not proof. The first sin was Chava opting for proof over faith, and in the end it didn't help her, she had her proof and knoweldge of good and evil, yet she chose to hide from G-d (this in one Tora that R' Shlomo really burned into me), people know certain foods aren't good for them, it doesn't help them, they continue to eat them, and even if they succeed in curving or stopping their binges - it's not so much fun. The Spiritual worlds don't work like this (one of the principles of the Baal Hasulam, and also a popular topic of R' Shlomo. of course its Rabbainu who really explains this) they work with magnetism. This is the way of the Petek, people are drawn to it - look at the hundreds of comments this blog is drawing.
This is one of the reasons why the Petek is so critical, it represents the correct relationship and approach we should have in Yahadus! Thus is makes a lot of sense that so much should be staked on the Petek!
Furthermore the Petek establishes that the continuation of Rabbi Nachman's way is through the Saba. This is very important, especially since almost everyone who isn't following Rabbi Nachman as given over by the Saba has either made for themselves their own leaders (something that is the antithesis of Breslov) or they are practicly indifferent to Rabbainu's cause (of course bah. will argue with this, but ask him how many sforim he sold, how many people constantly mention Rabbi Nachman etc. etc. because of him and if whatever it is he's doing it is probably greatly motivated by the Nanach themselves, if only to prove them his points), they have their own watered down version, which precious as it is, is not completely loyal to Rabbi Nachman.
Now sorry to do this to you again but I must remind you that almost everything I wrote now was already written, but you are probably becoming Nanach so your eyes are to the future and we can not expect you to read what was already written. Great to have you on board!
NNNNM!

 
At September 15, 2008 at 7:16:00 PM EDT, Anonymous serious breslover said...

bahaltener, yosef. the ifs are there just to stress the importance and seriousness of this whole topic. its not something that can be just brushed aside. it is something that must be proven either way.

about proving the petek. i put this to you. can what rabbeinu says be proven. ie can what he says about being the tsadik ha'emes and all that he says about himself, how can this be proven. most gedolim and am yisroel dont follow him. how can we know if what he says is true. through chochma? how can you rely on your own chochma to go against the majority of the gedolim and am yisrael.

so bahaltener and yosef. answer me this. how did you both become breslov. breslov until recently was mostly rejected and looked down upon. even now it is only just about accepted. how can you prove that rabbeinu is what he claims to be.
whatever your answer is, it is the same answer with the petek. think about this and i am very interested in your replies.

 
At September 15, 2008 at 7:44:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

serious breslover: Emunas tzadikim is an integral part if Yiddishkeit. The question of establishing whether someone is a tzaddik or not is an old one, and is somewhat akin to the question of establishing whether someone is a novi or not (Look in Rambam about it). However it is of course isn't easy and requires an effort.

However "emunas hapetek" has nothing to do with Yiddishkeit and is not a part of it. It is a completely separate issue, invented by someone. Even if someone can proves it to be true (though there is no one), there is no such obligation in Yiddishkeit as "emunas hapetek". And if someone builds a "separate religion" based on "emunas hapetek" (as was voiced here) it is a serious problem, since it is deyo zoro.

Emunas tzadikim is however a part of Yiddishkeit and is found all around in the Toyro and Chazal.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 3:28:00 AM EDT, Anonymous gita said...

B"H

i am certainly not rushing anyone to conclude this discussion, but in any case ask respectfully that the "final word" - whenever that will be - be of Saba, BAAL HAPETEK, Rav Yisrael ber Odesser, as he writes in one of his precious letters to President Shazar:

TO BE STRONG IN OUR FAITH

With G*d's Help
19 Tammuz 5720
Tiberias

My soul and heart, the pleasant Mr. Zalman Shazar. Who draws life from the drops of kindness of the Tzaddik, who is the root of all the wellsprings of wisdom. Who can give life to all Israel and to everyone in the world. Happy is your portion and lot. Peace and all good for length of days.

The covenant of our love will never be annulled and many waters will not be able to exstinguish it, G*d forbid. My beloved brother, treasure of my eye and heart, faithful dear friend, be strong and brave. Do not be afraid and do not fear. Do not become panicked or confused. And do not let your spirit fall from anything that happened, from anything in the world, whatever may be. For thank G*d we have broad shoulders on which to lean. For now in our days we already have a new light in the world, awesome and exalted, that can repair everything and transform sins to merits. Remember every day and at all times and in every place to rejoice with all strength, with all heart and soul, and to praise G*d for all the kindness that He has done with us with His wondrous and powerful kindnesses, and has given us a free gift that we have fallen into the portion of the True Tzaddik, who is the head and chosen of all the choice Tzaddikim, higher than all the high ones. Who works with us now to extract us from between the teeth of the forces of evil. From all evil places that we have fallen into. And to raise us up above the physical. Just that the main thing to darken the eyes of one's mind completely and to cast away completely one's intellect and wisdom and to make oneself like an animal without intelligence and to rely on faith alone. And this is the main wisdom of all the wisdoms. For when one will be strong in his faith alone, without intellect and wisdoms and philosophical inquiries at all in his mind, then for sure one will merit with the passing of days to understand and to comprehend true Divine wisdom, that which is impossible to comprehend with the human mind. And so long as he does not set this up as a test. And that he just goes with sincerity and simplicity, with truly straight faith. But he must guard himself greatly from false faiths, faiths of stupidity and vanity. That he not be a fool to believe everything. And this is the aspect of pure animals and defiled animals, concerning which Hashem Yisborach has warned us to distingusih between the defiled and the pure. For the faith is akin to an animal, as mentioned above. But straight faith, with the truth of holiness, is the aspect of pure animals. And false faiths are the aspect of defiled animals! One who goes with sincerity will come to understanding. One who has faith afterwards merits to serve Hashem with great knowledge. Through acknowledging Tzaddikim, one merits understanding and knowledge. Through truth comes the End [of Days, the Messianic Era].

The author and arranger, who prays always for your peace and success in this and the next world. I yearn to meet with you and to speak words of truth and faith. I seek your peace.

The Writer

 
At September 16, 2008 at 5:45:00 AM EDT, Anonymous serious breslover said...

bahaltener. emunas hapetek is exactly the same as emunas tsadikim. we are believing an account and experience of a tsadik. it cant be simpler. not one breslover ever said that saba was not a tsadik. if so, how can they not believe what he is saying. from his account, there is no possible way anyone but rabbeinu could have written the petek and that it was a pure nes. the only other explanation is based on a misnaged. tsadik-misnaged, who do you believe? peteks falling from shamayim are not new at all in yiddishkeit. there are many such cases in chazal and history.

the petek doesn't add or change anything. it is just megaleh the tsadik of our generation who we should follow. all saba does is instill us with simple and pure faith in rabbeinu. saba was a tsadik gamur who had completely purified himself from tayva and kavod. other breslov gedolim may be tsadikim but not to the extent saba was. this is what the petek is telling us.

i repeat, there is nothing new to yiddishkeit here. this is simply rabbeinu's way of being megaleh the true and complete tsadik of our dor. in one torah rabbeinu says that the handwriting of a tsadik is like smichas yadayim. through the petek rabbeinu was giving smicha to saba. like moshe did to yehoshua. like moshe said to yehoshua 'chazak ve'emats', so did rabbeinu say to saba. there are many many remazim in the petek which prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that no human could have written such a thing without having known these secrets and remazim lechatchilla. but a person will never be able to see these secrets and great wisdom of the petek if they dont accept it with a simple and pure faith in saba.

saba, one of the greatest and most faithful breslovers whoever lived (just read his life story), one who has had arguably the biggest impact in our generation in bringing rabbeinu's light to the world, a tsadik whose tsidkus noone dares challenge, tells a complete story of his whole experience of coming close to rabbeinu and of the story of the petek where again according to his account no human could have written that. what is so unyiddishkeit about believing such a story from a true tsadik and breslover, especially since such stories have taken place in the past.
saba says that after his rebbe rav yisroel karduner died, he came back and made kiddush for his family. so whats the big deal with a petek.
nothing new is based on this petek. there is nothing new which is not breslov about na nach. all na nach is, is accepting saba as the tsadik hador and following his advice as opposed to other breslov manhigim. his main advice is to follow rabbeinu with simple pure faith, learn his seforim, get up chatsot and do hafatsa. what is so unbreslov about that?

rabbeinu says without his talmidim you cant get to the tsadik. saba is rabbeinu's true talmid. only through him can we receive the light of the tsadik. this is what the petek tells us. "aleicha amarti 'ha'esh sheli tukad ad biyis hamashiach".

again, the petek is just a giluy of which tsadik we should connect ourselves to in our most troubled generation. rabbeinu saw the great confusion before the geulah and this was the only way he could be megaleh to us who we should follow. this is all totally within torah.

i advice you do as rabbeinu says, be mesalek all your da'as and from anything or person who may be influencing you. be mekasher yourself to the tsadik with complete faith and cry out and daven to Hashem that he should lead you on the right path to the true tsadik whoever he may be.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 5:55:00 AM EDT, Anonymous true searching breslover said...

gita. yashar kochach!

saba just gets right to the truth, in the most pure and simple of ways.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 1:43:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

emunas hapetek is exactly the same as emunas tsadikim.

This is wrong. Please learn more about emnuas tzadikim and what it means. And don't invent new religions please, we had enough problems with earlier inventors.

On the side note - tzadikim can also make mistakes by the way. Reb Nosson discusses it in Likutey Halochoys for example.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 2:54:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Surely no thoughtful person would ever seriously attempt to use the haskamah of Rav Moshe, zt"l,to bolster the Petek since it was not given in a vacuum. Rav Moshe never promoted the Petek to students or even his family.If he held of it why didn't he ever even mention it? Even if he had said it himself this would have done a lot to spread it.
Rav Moshe's tzidkus was legendary. When an obviously important (but possibly mistaken) tzaddik discusses such a "secret," most people will not give him credibility unless it is addressed in any haskamah. The main point of the letter is obviously to raise money to print Rebbe Nachman's seforim. Rav Oddesser was so enamored with the petek that if Rav Moshe hadn't enthusiastically mentioned it it is quite plausible that no one would have given him money for the important cause of printing Rebbe Nachman's seforim. If the main theme of the letter was a haskama on the petek that would make a little more sense (although failing to mention it would still be very telling.)
It is ridiculously over the top to claim that those who refuse to accept the petek are not Breslov etc etc. What about all those years during which Rav Oddesser, zt"l, shared the petek with all his important colleagues in Breslov from Rav Shmuel Horowitz, zt"l, to Rav Shmuel Shapiro, zt"L, and Rav Levi Yitchak Bender,zt"l? Everyone of them rejected the petek (but not Rav Oddesser.) Why should someone ignore this? Sadly, some Na Nachs hold that ALL great Breslover's (and of course all Chasidic and non Chasidic gedolim) are\ were false etc etc chas v'shalom.
Of course belief begins where understanding ends; you can literally believe anything since belief by definition transcends understanding.
But all the strong invectives show a marked lack of Azamra... Hashem should atone for it.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 4:14:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Anonymous, You didn't make yourself clear enough about R' Moshe's haskuma, do you or do you not respect what R' Moshe wrote about it. True it would have been nice to see R' Moshe become a full fledged Nanach, he was about to die and according to a few people he did start wearing a Nanach kumia, he asked that the Saba pray for him (at a time when he did not divulge to almost any one else about his severe health condition), he called his wife in to get a blessing from the Saba, and in the end he lived another 2 years that the doctors did not give him, but yes it would have been nice to see him go all the way Nanach. But the fact of the matter is he did write some incredible things about the Petek and the Saba - so do you or do you not recognise this. What you seem to insinuate is that R' Moshe was so concerned that the Saba should be successful in publishing R' Nachman's sforim that he wrote a little white lie kind of - mentioning the wonderous Petek - am I correct in my interpretation of what you wrote - do you mean this seriously?!
What you wrote about R' Shmuel Horowitz not accepting the Petek is wrong - or if you like - a lie. We have already posted that all the members of Pincus Chaver - the most committed Breslovers of the time, all accepted the Petek and some even wanted to publicize it! This is printed in the holy book Israel Saba. Its when Nanachs encounter falsehood like this we wonder where it stems from - often we see the roots in your leaders....
NNNNM!

 
At September 16, 2008 at 4:25:00 PM EDT, Anonymous very caring and serious breslover said...

bahaltener. you have completely failed to read my words with an open mind.

one last try. saba is a tsadik. he tells a story that the only possible explanation is that the petek fell from shamayim by a nes. no person could have written such a note, broken into his room and put a voice in his head to open a sefer and for saba to take a random sefer and open it on exactly the same page as the petek.

the petek contains too many wonders and wisdom to have been written as a prank. even by saba himself. according to the story there is no way this could have been a prank or written by saba. saba was a tsadik. he was a breslover. no breslover tries to trick or mislead another. any true breslover who hears a miraculous story from another will believe him with simple faith.

the only other version is based on a misnaged.

THERE IS NO NEW RELIGION. where do you get this from!!!!!!! it is a petek. a very special petek. the most special petek that was ever written. a petek writen by rabbeinu himself. a petek with many beautiful wonders and secrets for those who approach and search for truth with a pure and simple heart.

bahaltener. go to rabbeinu and daven there that Hashem should be megaleh the truth about the petek. all you need to have is an open mind and heart.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 5:20:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

no person could have written such a note, broken into his room and put a voice in his head to open a sefer and for saba to take a random sefer and open it on exactly the same page as the petek.
This teaches how dangerous is to play such jokes with people which not only cause them to be disillusioned for the rest of the life because of combination of circumstances, but produce a whole society of people with lack in emunas chachomim and bunch of other serious problems.

the petek contains too many wonders and wisdom to have been written as a prank.
Or enough "wonders" to be exactly the prank. This not provable from the standpoint of the petek itself, and there is no point in arguing about it anymore. You fail to admit, that all Breslover zkeynim and tzadikim of that time rejected this whole issue of the petek, and only R' Odesser thought it to be true. (Not like some falsificaters here trying to say, that everyone accepted it to be valid).

the only other version is based on a misnaged.
He stated a testimony, while the whole Nanach is based on the bunch of ifs and unprovable "nisim". The testimony weights more, if you want to validate something. However there is even no point in validating, since it has no real relevance to Breslov as was said before.

THERE IS NO NEW RELIGION. where do you get this from!!!!!!!
From Nanachs here, who stated the believing in the petek is a separate religion.

Serious Breslover: go to Rabbeinu and daven there that Hashem should be megaleh to Nanachs the truth about emunas tzadikim, and that Nanachs should leave their perverted ways of anarchy and rejection of Breslover mesoyro.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 5:46:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hananach: Let me clarify. I believe he Rav Moshe did not believe in the petek but did believe in Rav Odesser. (I don't suppose you have a genuine source for his wearing the petek in a kemiyah.If you did this wouldn't prove much either. Rav Moshe OR ANY GENUINE GADOL telling others or often saying the petek segulah himself would prove something but he never did. Neither did anyone else...)
As for Rav Shmuel Horowitz (I noticed that you ignored the other names who were outspoken against the petek and the remark about other gedolim-- something I have unfortunately heard from many many nanach's and you very sadly implied in your response about leaders, Hashem hatov yichaper...) again, you must realize that what he is recording is not in a vacuum. Rav Shmuel Horowitz NEVER advised anyone to say it. When he published the many works of Rebbe Nachman he Never mentions it. He didn't even mention that one should say Na Nach in any of his private letters several volumes of which have been recently published (by Keren Rav Yisrael Ber Odesser.) Rav Oddesser felt very strongly about the petek and one may lie to avoid machlokes. One may even flatter (someone worthy,)even if there will be no machlokes.(I will provide mekoros for this if you like.) At the time the petek was irrelevant, as it remained until the end of Rav Oddeser's life. Why make an issue about it? They had ample opportunity to publicize it or at least recommend it but they never did. Clearly they did not hold from it. Rav Odesser was a tzaddik but although he was convinced of the authenticity of the petek no one else was.
The petek was mentioned in Rav Moshe's hamlatza to print Rebbe Nachman's books as an aside. Rav Moshe was NOT writing a haskamah on the petek. I believe he mentioned it for a different reason. Either to enable the printing the stated PURPOSE of the letter or to gladden Rav Oddesser. As mentioned above no one who had anything to do with Rav Moshe took this letter seriously. If he wished to recommend one say na nach he could have done so in the letter. A few words like: "all of Israel should say this" would have also done wonders since it would have sounded like he HELD from it himself. We know it was wonderful-- for Rav Yisrael since it helped him through many hard times-- that doesn't mean Rav Moshe holds its the sode hageulah etc etc. Or that it should be said by everyone. I am glad you are able to admit that Rav Moshe was NOT a nanach. So if he was truly convinced the questions which begs an answer: why not? And why not at least tell people about the wonderful secret etc etc? The answer seems obvious: would have done what he didn't want to do: given a haskamah to the petek. He never did that.
Rav Odesser was what is known as against the entire Torah world: Litvish Chasidish Asheknazik or Sefardic on this issue. Breslov is also part of that world--unfortunately most nanach's are not..
Hashem should help us find the genuine truth and not look for victory.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 6:38:00 PM EDT, Anonymous YGUYNY said...

Showed two of R' Moshe's grandchildren and one of his sons the haskomo for R' Odesser. The english part at the bottom calls r' odesser a "most unusual individual" - the eineklach laughed and said that was R' Moshe's loshon for a meshugge! they also added that R'Moshe wrote glowing haskomos for many unstable people as long as their cause was worthy. Also - one of the eineklach was with him is his later years, would help him dress in the mornings, etc. and said he never wore any kameyos.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 7:17:00 PM EDT, Anonymous whatever said...

bahaltener. answer me one thing. how are you so sure this was a prank. you should atleast be besafek. if you are besafek then that means or saba is telling the tuth, or the misnaged is. IS SABA'S ACCOUNT NOT A TESTOMINY????????
how can you call a misnaged's account a testominy who openly declares he plays pranks on breslovers (and therefore is bechezkas playing a prank on all breslovers by lying saying he wrote it. ARE YOU SO NAIVE THAT MISNAGDIM WILL DO ANYTHING TO HIDE THE LIGHT OF THE TSADIK ESPECIALLY A NES LIKE THE PETEK??? where is your sechel???)
but reject saba's testimony outright????? saba's testimony alone is proof. you dont need further proof.

so again, tell me how it is you are completely convinced the petek was a prank that you reject outright the petek and its most special and important message from none other than rabbeinu.

i dont care what other so called na nachs say. the petek is not a new religion. why cant you hear anything??? the petek is very relevant to breslovers as it confirms saba as the true talmid of rabbeinu. it cant be more relevant.

so again. how do you so easily rejects a tsadik's account of a miracle (where according to his account it is impossible anyone could have forged it) and accept a misnaged's account who admits he plays pranks on breslovers.

think about this for a moment. read it through a few times. listen to its logic. think about its logic. maybe you are not seeing the picture clearly here.

whatever you do, i want a serious answer from you how you believe a prankster misnaged over a breslover yirei shamayim moser nefesh al rabbeinu tsadik.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 7:25:00 PM EDT, Anonymous triumphant breslover said...

bahaltener. you say tsadikim can make mistakes. rightly so. so maybe its all upside down. maybe whoever rejects the petek is making a mistake and HIM being fooled by the misnaged prankster. i know one thing. only saba was there when he opened the sefer and found the petek. only saba heard the clear voive in his head telling him to open a sefer to find his cure. only saba experienced the light of the petek after he found it and his whole life thereafter. only saba really knows what happened. i trust saba. I WONT BE FOOLED BY PRANKSTER MISNAGDIM SAYING THEY WROTE THE PETEK WHICH RABBEINU HAKADOSH WROTE. you say saba made a mistake. i say anyone who rejects saba's tetimony is making a grave mistake indeed and should rethink this whole matter out with a new mind and new heart.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 8:24:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

the reason that Rabbi Shmuel Horowitz didn't meforsam the Petek is because it was not yet time. This is what Saba Said.
the Letter of R' Moshe was not a letter about the Petek. No one ever said that it was. who are you arguing with???? The Petek is it's own haskama. duh??
Open your eyes. If you can't see the miracle then pray. No one is arguing, stop it. No one is trying to prove anything. It is a choice. Believe it or not. Believe Saba or believe the misnagged. It is your choice. No one in Na Nach wants to argue and prove things. There are many people here in Israel that hold of the Petek and many that don't. It's a choice. I see a miracle in the Petek, with my eyes. you say I'm crazy. I don't care. I doesn't help me one bit in this world or the world to come what anyone thinks of me. You don't hear the music so don't dance. But don't stop us from dancing. You can go stand aside and theorize all you want, write books and books and books and movies and documentaries or whatever explaining away the miracle that I see with my very eyes and heart and in my life and the life of my friends. If you want the light of Na Nach pray. If you want to oppose it, so go down in history as an opposer. It's your choice

 
At September 16, 2008 at 9:40:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Dear Anonymous,
Saba-noon just answered some of your questions, and here I'll do the rest BH"Y. It seems to me that you don't take R' Moshe seriously, if he writes a public approbation saying that the Petek is wonderous and in signed the English version that he was inspired by it, if R' Moshe was a Gadol, one must face the music. If you had any respect for R' Moshe you would not say that oh he publicly gave his OK to something that he believed to be untrue (the fact of the matter is that R' Moshe wanted to see the Saba precisely because he was impressed by the Petek). R' Moshe also wrote that the Saba was proficient in Kabala, this is something that R' Moshe never did for anyone ever. So obviously R' Moshe did have a dramatic reaction, instead of writing off one of your Gidolim you should admit you don't know exactly what happened and that your not interested, until then hows this for an educated theory out of the air: it is safer to say that in order that people should have bechira and or that they shouldn't pronounce him to be crazy (like they say about the Saba even after he got the most flattering of all of R' Moshe's haskoma's ever), R' Moshe did not go around saying Nanach.
The reason that I didn't mention the other Rabbi's you did, is because I don't know whether or not they were members of Pincus Chaver, if they were, then they believed in the Petek if they weren't I don't know what their beliefs were and it doesn't make a difference.
Now you state your belief that R' Moshe believed in the Saba and in publishing Rabbainu's books (so much so that he wrote misleading things so that the will of Rabbainu would be upheld! yet he never anywhere else mentions Rabbainu or his books!). That means your taking the position of some of the other comments here that Tzadikim make mistakes, and according to you guys they make huge mistakes and sacrifice their lives countless of times - all for a mistake C"V. The concept that Tzadikim make mistakes isn't new, I can show you places where Rabbi Nachman says even more startling things (e.g. in Sefer Hamidos...). But don't you think your going a little to far! The Saba devoted most of his later years, all his strength and energy to publicising the Petek, to the extent that you say that R' Moshe understood that if he did not mention the Petek he would completely undermine the Saba, and yet R' Moshe really believed in the saintliness of the Saba, do you not see that this is a contradiction. If the Petek is not true or at best not relevant, and someone makes it clear that the Petek is his main agenda can that someone really be a tzadik who is slightly mistaken - or in other words is that what your calling the Nanach of today - sorry you don't seem to be giving us your haskama and even putting in a good word for the Petek - OK so your not R' Moshe, but if you can't follow his example learn from the Nanach who are loyal and follow the Saba!
What you say that the Saba was against the 'Tora' world etc.. You got that right, but you want to say that Breslov is part of that world, obviously you don't know much history. Breslov was put in Chayrem buy the Litvish and the Chasidim, Breslovers were spat on and persicuted buy the whole 'Tora' world, I don't have to write more it's well known, somehow I find it hard to believe you did not know this. What I think your saying is that what's going on in Breslov today is considered part of the 'Tora' world, and that's exactl the point of the Nanach, to make sure to retain the integrity of Breslov, not to give in to the sheker that Breslov always refused. However you should know that the Saba loved them anyway, he sacrificed his life praying for them and trying to teach them the correct path. He even respected them for their good qualities, and he married off his devoted daughter to one of them, surprising even her. Jews are precious, there is nothing nearly as precious as a Jew. However Rabbi Nachman is the leader of Jewry and we must be faithful to Jewry by guiding them in his light.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 10:16:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

I know someone that spoke to a member of the family of R'Moshe and they told me that no one in the family talks about it. After seening the number of responses on this page I can understand why. Lets just stick to the facts.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 10:17:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

whatever/triumphant:

Please, pay attention to what was said before. I'm not an investigator to establish the validity of these claims in a way that is sufficient for Beis Din let's say. I only noted, that R' Odesser couldn't testify on anything regarding the authenticity of the petek. He could only say what he beleived it means. Did he see the petek falling into the book from heavens? Did he see it appearing there out of nothingness? He didn't see how it came there. And the only one who claimed that he saw, said that he wrote it himself.

You say - he is a misnaged, why trust his words? It is your right not to trust. But no one else saw it anyhow. Therefore, the point is clear - no one else can testify for the authenticity of the petek. NO ONE. R' Odesser said he felt it to be unusual story, so it made him beleive it was miracle. That's what he felt. This is not a prove of authenticity by any means. So forget about proving anything. It is pointless. I wrote it straightforward, that I'm not even interested in such proofs because in reality it is simply impossible. The testimony though still remains, and you can as well trust it, or not. It is still a more valid clarification of this issue, than one's assumptions.

However, regardless whether the story of the petek was miraculous or not, one can openly see, that those who are associated with that the society that places the petek as their central belief produces very disgusting and perverted views. They are not kosher at all, that was said already before various times. You don't agree with these views presented by other Nanachs? Good for you. But they agree. And hang them all on the petek. This is a strong reason to say that it is not only irrelevant, but is actually a negative thing.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 10:51:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"This is not a prove of authenticity by any means."

No Na Nach is trying to "prove" the Petek. A miracle can never be proved or disproved, it simply can be believed or not. The Petek itself is it's own haskama, any miracle is it's own testimony. Anyone can see that it is a miracle simply by looking at a photocopy of it. Saba is not the only one that sees it is a miracle, anyone can see.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 10:54:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"But no one else saw it anyhow."

Including him, as you yourself said, there is no one who can testify that this story (of Joel Ashkenaz) is true anyway. You are not standing on anything.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 11:05:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

and anyway where does it say anywhere in the books of Breslov that a miracle needs proof? Only the opposers are speaking of proofs and lack of proofs. No where does it ever say in any of the words of Rebainu anything about proofs of miracles. Rather it says the opposite. faith and then understand and then faith again. The goal of knowledge is not to know. The goal of knowledge is faith. Not proofs of miracles. Why do you keep trying to discredit us by saying we have no Proof. Never has the idea even crossed our minds of ever even asking for a proof, or thinking of a proof. yet you keep on tirelessly saying "you can't prove it!" we never said that we can. Neither did Rebainu. This whole idea of "proofs" for miracles is simply a foreign and strange idea to all of Judaism. It is a philosophical and scientific idea and NOT Jewish.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 11:09:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

what strange behaviors do Na Nach's do? Dance? sell books of Rebbe Nachman, Chant the Name of Rebbe Nachman. Keep halacha? come out with it what is bothering you really? Specifically what is the problem. Go out and say it. Here in Israel everyone loves Na Nach. It is really only a very few that oppose it.

 
At September 16, 2008 at 11:56:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

what strange behaviors do Na Nach's do?

There were discussed in this and in previous thread on the subject. Reread them if you didn't understand. But you support them so there is no point in repeating them to you again. Those who want to know these issues can find more then enough of them discussed above, and in the previous thread: http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2006/09/based-on-childish-prank-na-nach-nachma.html

 
At September 17, 2008 at 12:21:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"Thank G-d that we are living in this world,now in such a darkness, in this orphan generation-without rabeinu. all the scholars and all the Torah leaders are orphans, they know nothing. they have no father, no mother.
Rabbeinu is the Father, he is the mother, he is everything! He is the Torah, he is the faith, he is everthing! Everything is Rabbeinu!
They don't want to know. With their wisdoms, they think"What, all the Torah leaders don't know? What only Breslov, only Rebbe Nachman?" They cannot accept this. And the liars, the liars in Breslov, they also lie and lie. Falsehood is not Breslov. it is another world. Truth-it is only Breslov!"
Israel Saba page 472

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:38:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Saba Noon:
you wrote: the Letter of R' Moshe was not a letter about the Petek. No one ever said that it was. who are you arguing with????

I appreciate your candid reply and couldn't agree more. Sadly others argue and believe it was a haskama.
Nanach: No one who "takes Rav Moshe seriously" takes the petek seriously.
I can respect Saba Noon's attitude on this issue. He searched and found his path. It is a matter of emunah and he places his lot with Rav Odesser; I hear that. But to say that Rav Moshe was serious about the Petek is ridiculous. To say that one Must believe in nanach because of the petek is obviously false.
If I may quote YGUYNY above: "Showed two of R' Moshe's grandchildren and one of his sons the haskomo for R' Odesser. The english part at the bottom calls r' odesser a "most unusual individual" - the eineklach laughed and said that was R' Moshe's loshon for a meshugge! they also added that R'Moshe wrote glowing haskomos for many unstable people as long as their cause was worthy."
As I wrote above: the hamlazahh was not given in a vacuum.
Although he respected the Sabah, Rav Moshe often gave effusive haskamos even to imbalanced people. If you want to prove something from a haskama the burden of proof is on you. I hope you get honest like Saba Noon. The purpose of the haskamah was to encourage others to give money to print Rebbe Nachman's books; period. You can't extrapolate anything from the rest of it including the glowing terms since Rav Moshe was not particular about haskamos.
It would have been so easy for Rav Moshe to make clear how you claim he felt about Nanach.
To ensure free will is a specious argument at best; he not only maintained free will; he sent a clear message. If he has himself said or even MENTIONED the petek to anyone after his meeting with Rav Odesser it would have been easier to take your claims seriously. Since he did not, EVERYONE who knew or respects Rav Moshe does NOT take the so called haskama seriously.
You are making way too big a deal about the chaburah.It didn't last long and they were not the only important breslovers. No member of the Chaburah or his children had\ have ANYTHING to do with NaNach. Why is that? Presumably not one of them really believed the petek as I wrote above.
Have you ever seen Michtavei Shmuel by Rav Horowitz? He encourages individuals to come close to Hashem through Rebbe Nachman's advice. It is very telling that he never even mentions the petek as authentic advice of Rebbe Nachman.
Rav Odesser did. He tried to convince everyone about its authenticity for many years. No one believed him.They may have acted as though they did so as not to antagonize him about something he felt very strongly about but the moment he left life went on. People worked to serve Hashem with Rebbe Nachmn's vast store houses of advice--which in their world view did NOT include Nanach.
As far as claiming that you have never heard of Rav Shmuel Shapira. zt"l; surely you jest. He was one of the greatest breslovers of recent times. A search on your website immediately revealed a quote from his personal letters... As for Rav Bender, I know the Sabbah called him a "meisis" for convincing others not to go with the petek. Very likely this is what the others who supported the petek (only to him and only to his face were trying to avoid.) You may have heard of Siach Sarfei Kodesh a repository of many very beautiful meaningful teachings of Rebbe Nachman. He was the man who conveyed all that information (6 volumes to date with two more on the way.) Most of the Breslov books in English quote it as a major source of Breslov Chasidus.
Hashem should help us all work on the vast store houses of advice Rebbe Nachman offered (just like Rav Oddeser and all other Breslovers before and after the petek) and be as Rebbe Nachman wanted--"tzaddim just like me"!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:55:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

just to make myself clear, Even though the letter of R' Moshe was not "Haskama" on the Petek. it is clearly obvious to me that R' Moshe did hold by it. R' Moshe does not seem like a mamsey pamsey kind of guy that writes flowery words to give warm fuzzy feelings to people. The reason that He did not openly say that "this Petek is a miracle" is because it is obvious to anyone who sees it. It would be insulting to faith, to rebbe Nachman and to torah to give an Endorsement or letter of credibility to an obvious miracle.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 2:14:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Do you suppose that R' Moshe was thinking that R' Odesser was crazy and was flattering him in front of others as being a Goan in Torah? Sounds like you don't really take R' Moshe seriously. Especially since he did not write these words for a lot of people. It all sounds like a lot of Chockmah's. you sound complicated. Can you explain your idea simple so my kid can understand. My idea is simple, a child can understand. Your idea sounds like someone has to be smart to understand it. I'm not smart like that. If you have a point that you believe to be true try to say it another way, like a simpleton can understand. NNNNM!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:53:00 AM EDT, Anonymous concerned said...

Saba-Noon

You said: "The Saba very clearly said that those who openly and clearly oppose the validity of the Petek have no portion in Israel, the Torah, Rebbe Nachman or holiness or anything. The Saba, very openly, clearly said these things many times, in front of many people and on tape and on video. "

I would like to see these videos please any links?

You see I happen to be quite ignorant of Na Nach philosophy, all I know is dancing in the streets grafitti and Rav Yisroel Odesser's story about a Petek.

Now I do know the Rambam's 13 ikarim of Emunah. There is no 14th ikar called belief in the petek.

Anyone have a link to any of these videos?

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:12:00 AM EDT, Anonymous sincere breslover said...

bahaltener. "Why trust his words? is your right not to trust"

so you are saying you must trust someone's words. this is enough of a reason for a person to be obliged (stress) to trust saba's words.

but you claim that even saba did not know what happened. well if you read the story properly you will see that saba knew exactly what happened. (have you ever even read saba's version of the story?)

firstly the voice in saba's head telling him to open any sefer and there you will find your cure, and immediately saba picks a random sefer and on the very page he opens is the petek. this proves the maaseh was above nature.

also saba recounts that after the maaseh the dayan went round checking everyone to see who wrote the petek. when no one owned up, the dayan, who was until then a misnaged of breslov, DROPPED HIS HISNAGDUS TO BRESLOV!!!! did you hear that. are u listening. a talmid chacham dropped his hisnagdus to breslov based on this story. no one owned up. no one ever told saba, "it was me and a trick". this was a made up story later on by people who wanted to undermine the nes. this is COMPLETE proof that no one wrote the petek and the claims were only made up a long time after the maaseh happened.

so in your own words, "is it your right not to trust?".

dont pay attention to waht na nachs do. truth is about truth. not about anything else. only the bad na nachs make a noise. the good ones are the most beautiful tmimus tsadikim you will ever meet. most of the na nachs i know are good quiet people. dont judge truth based on a few bad ones.

you cannot push aside the story of the petek. the petek confirms saba as the true talmid of Rabbeinu and a haskoma from Rabbeinu himself that we should follow Saba as opposed to the ones who are misnaged to him.

there are more na nachs today than breslovers in the time of rabbeinu. think about that. truth does not come in big numbers. all the great tsadikim didnt become breslov in the time of rabbeinu so it means nothing if tsadikim dont believe in the petek. "echad haya avraham". even if you are the only person who has found truth you must stick to it. no amount of talmidei chachamim or breslovers come into the equation.

YOU MUST FIND TRUTH BY YOURSELF

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:32:00 AM EDT, Anonymous sensitive breslover said...

to concerned. the '14th' ikar is the ikar which all ikarim are based on. it is not mentioned as one as it is the yesod and shoresh of all of them. without it the whole of yiddishkeit collapses.

the '14th' ikar is belief in the tsadik. you believe and rely on the rambam. why is that. because you trust and rely on the tsadikim.

Rabbeinu's main message was that there is ONE tsadik ha'emes who is above all tsadikim and you must believe and follow him above all other tsadikim. this is a great chiddush.
but to find this ONE tsadik is very very difficult, as everything, absolutely everything is based on finding this one tsadik. that is why there is always great hisnagdus on the true tsadik.
how do you find him. follow Rabbeinu's advice. it is mainly through tefila. it is not an easy path whatsoever, that is why only few, if any, make it to the end.

the petek confirms saba as the true tsadik until moshiach. you can understand why it is such a hot and controversial topic. the 'other side' will do anything to undermine saba, the petek and his followers. look at how passionate people are here from both sides. this is the hottest topic as EVERYTHING is dependant on it.

you can understand why it is such a terrible sin to openly oppose the petek. no less than maaseh korach ve'adaso. you see korach and his men were also great tsadikim and talmidei chachamim and they opposed none other than Moshe rabbeinu himself. one third of am yisrael were behind korach and 1 third were unsure.

finding the true tsadik that everything depends on him is the most difficult task you will ever have to undertake. even once you have found him, it is only the beginning. all i can say is dont pay attention to anyone (stress) and search for truth and truth alone. much mesiras nefesh is needed.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:47:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

concerned

No, there are no videos, or recordings on line with Saba saying all these things, but it is a good idea to put them up. But the videos are available, just go to nanach.net and there is info there about a free DVD. also Read "Israel Saba" "Ebey Nachal" in Hebrew. But in the begining, it is not important to focus on this. It is a little difficult to understand. But you should know that Saba didn't say nice things about people who openly opposed the Miracle of the Petek. This statement should be a way to know that Saba held that the Petek was in fact very important.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 9:23:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Saba Noon: Have you ever tried to explain the intricate Torah of Rebbe Nachman, zt"l, or Rav Nosson, zt"l, to your kid? Or the Ba'al Shem Tov's Torah for that matter?
Unless he is a tremendous genius he will not even begin to understand. Are you saying these holy seforim are invalid because of this?
I heard about Rav Moshe not being particular with haskamos way before I ever heard about the petek. (Anyone who had anything to do with Rav Moshe would never have heard of the petek since Rav Moshe never said it or promoted it in any form; why don't you see his letter for what it is?)
I understand your point of view though. As I already wrote: "Of course belief begins where understanding ends; you can literally believe anything since belief by definition transcends understanding."
You believe and I respect that as I wrote above.However, you have not answered any of my questions above. Everyone in Breslov knows\ knew about the petek and that no one took the petek seriously all those years. Rav Oddeser was in an old age home and still no one took it seriously. They had heard about they just didn't believe it for whatever reason. Rav Moshe also clearly did not take it seriously. Rav Odesser did. That is the only great name behind the petek. He is against everyone. If you want to go with him I can understand. When I see people who denigrate Breslovers and non-Bresolvers who agree with everyone else and with what Rav Moshe DID, I can only conclude that this shows a marked lack of Azamra. People who place themselves out of the Jewish people and feel "different from \ better then" others who "don't see the light etc etc also demonstrate an "Azamra deficiency." What about the good? What about Rabeinu's statememt regarding Azamar: "even a complete Rasha?" Hashem should atone for it. I am glad to say that not all nanachs think like that. Some take Rebbe Nachman's Azamra seriously not only regarding those who believe in the petek but also regarding the vast majority of Breslovers who do not.And yes... even all Jews. Is he wicked? You can still see and focus on the good in him.(Not validate the bad--but not invalidate the good.) If you can't see the good, at least do not focus on the bad! Hashem should atone for our natural intolerance and help us follow Azamra every day--even with Jews who don't see life as we do.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 10:32:00 AM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

dont pay attention to waht na nachs do. truth is about truth. not about anything else. only the bad na nachs make a noise. the good ones are the most beautiful tmimus tsadikim you will ever meet. most of the na nachs i know are good quiet people. dont judge truth based on a few bad ones.

No, I've heared enough tales about "good tsar and evil ministers". This sophistry will not work here. I spoke already with many na-nachs, to conclude, that it is not accidental at all (the crooked form of anarchism and pegam in emunas chachomim and similar problems), and is actually the cornerstone of Nanach. Accidentally or not, you are the only one here who didn't agree with these views. ALL other Nanachs didn't even show any discomfort in having such perverted views.

you cannot push aside the story of the petek.
All Breslover zekeynim and tzadikim of that time could and did. And all Breslovers can. I'll repeat again - R' Odesser didn't have any proofs. He didn't see what happened, he only judged the circumstances of how he found the petek. This is not a proof to anything and doesn't obligate anyone to accept this story as true.

the petek confirms saba as the true talmid of Rabbeinu and a haskoma from Rabbeinu himself that we should follow Saba as opposed to the ones who are misnaged to him.
Since there is no way to show the validity of the petek, the claim that one should follow the Saba is total inapplicable.

there are more na nachs today than breslovers in the time of rabbeinu. think about that.

You answered it yourself: truth does not come in big numbers.

It doesn't matter how many. The truth is what matters.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 10:41:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Yes I can explain the simple truth of Rebbe Nachman to any child. If a person can't explain things to a child (of 10 years old or so) then they really can't fully understand it and really should not be publishing. All the esential basics anyone, with a sincere and searching heart can understand.

Do I understand your take on the letter of Rabbi Moshe Feinsten correctly? I went over your reasoning many times in my head until I think I got it. It sounds to me like you are saying...

According to your reasoning Reb Moshe Feinstein meant in his letter.

"I am writting on behalf of a crazy person , he showed a false document, but he is very important? but he does not really know any torah or kabbalah (because a crazy person everyone knows can't really know any torah) you should trust him with your money." do you really want me to explain this to our children? Oh, and you say that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was known to write letters like this a lot. Oh, and what did Saba say in all his Torah (Rebainu,Rebainu, only Rebainu) I don't get it. What do you want me to tell my children? That Saba was crazy and Reb Moshe flattered him a lot and wrote a false note because he didn't want to hurt his feelings? By the way it is permisable to change a word to keep peace, but this would not change a word this would change the whole letter.

This is what I tell my children. Saba was a holy man of great understanding, A miracle happened for him. If we believe this miracle we get much encouragement to follow Rebbe Nachman. Saba met with Rabbi Moshe and they liked each other very much. Rabbi Moshe wrote a letter saying that Saba was very holy and knew a lot of secret Torah and that we should give our money to print Rebbe Nachman Books. (by the way it is ONLY the Na Nach print the books of Breslov) If your kids come to me I will tell them what I tell my kids, because this is how I understand the truth. Simply. If I am wrong and my faith is wrong. Then the worst thing that could happen in the heavenly court is that I am accused of Believing in the Simple words of Two great and Reputed Tzadikim (This is the worst thing to be said about this.) On the other hand If Saba is right then those that don't believe are holding back the Redemption. There is no middle ground on this issue, Everyone must make a decision, "The Petek will overturn the world" Saba said. We Na Nach are not here to try to convince only to inform and make known the issues and the words of Saba.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 11:44:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Dear Reader,
You should know, that this whole thing around Saba and the Petek has been hidden and covered up by the opposition. Which, upon deep investigation of this critical issue one can uncover many things that appear to be obvious truth but actually have no standing. For example, People often say Joel Ashkenazi wrote the letter. Since people don't give things a second thought so they assume that both sides of the story have credibility. But upon deeper contemplation of the issues and upon investigation of the "two" stories we find really that the other side does not have anything really to stand on. There is no record of anyone of real authority saying that they wrote the letter. Their whole stance is only "this guy told me that he heard" etc. etc. Whereas the story of Saba is clearly spoken, recorded and published (By the Keren and by NaNach.Net) read it. So you have at least one side. Whereas the other side cannot produce any evidence of their non miracle story as they themselves admit. (which apparently should be able to be proved because non miracles have "proofs"). Instead they insist that we give them proof for a miracle (which is not a Jewish thing) but proof for an supposed natural event they cannot even begin to provide in the least. When we say the belief in the miracle of the Petek is a choice, we do not mean to say that one must choose between the two stories, no, their story is a lie as can be evidenced, by any sincere seeker of the truth who takes the time and patience to question the "establishment" investigate the facts. When we say that belief in the Petek remains a choice it means that it is a choice to believe. If someone does not believe in the Miracle then they should be able to explain things however they want. They should not need the story of J.A. They just choose not to believe and that's their choice. This is why we Na Nach, urge you all to please investigate the story for yourselves, we are here to help clarify the issues and inform people of this very serious thing that we believe is the introduction to the Final Redemption. May it come speedily and in our days.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 11:48:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

The above being stated. There is actually quite a bit of evidence that there were prominant members of the Breslov Community that did hold of the Petek. It is only the "Gedolia" of today that oppose it. It really is a split, some people hold by it some don't.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 12:39:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

As I have stated before, In my heart of hearts I love every Jew and pray for them all the time. None of what I have said was ever meant against a single Jew. But falsehood must be called by it's name. Azamra does not mean tolerate heresy. A lack of faith is heresy. And those that insist that the miracle is not true have a lack of faith in a great tzadik. Saba knew himself that it was a miracle because the letter was written to him by his master (Rebbe Nachman). Saba recognized the words of the Rebbe to his heart. There were many other letters that were fakes that Saba recognized as fakes. Not to Believe in the Petek is not to Believe in Saba, Who was a chochum. A lack of believe in the Chuchum of the Dor should be called heresy. Of course, even the one that is a Heretic has done some good. I do search out the good of the opposition, but we must separate ourselves from heresy (lack of faith). I realize that the main enemy is only in our minds and there is no external opposition at all. This is why I am actually enjoying this forum very much, It is helping me to clearify the truth within myself. We are against the ideas of the opposers, not the opposers themselves, we feel that the falsehood should fall away, Even the Erev Rav will to Tshuvah.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 12:52:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Saba Noon stated that "only NaNach print Rabbi Nachman books".
That is false. Meshech HaNachal, Rav Shick, Breslov Research (in English), and others do and have published all the Breslov sefarim. Most of the Breslov sefarim I own are not from Rabbi Odesser's keren.
It's great that the keren has increased the availability of the sefarim, but it is ridiculous to think that they are the only ones.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:11:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Your emunas chachomim is limited to one person, and all other chachomim are "sheker" to you. That is not emunas chachomim at all. It is emunas Chacham, at the exclusion of all others. That has never been the derech of Breslov, even when there was machlokes against it.
The tzaddik is "nekudas emes bein ha-tzadikim", i.e. he embodies the collective truth and righteousness, and is connected with the good points of all the Jewish people, above differences and machlokes. That would seem to be a radically different interpretation from what you are saying here.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:23:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Saba noon: Your arguments are ridiculous, and sound like missionary type of rhetoric. It is you that stand on nothing regarding the petek. It is all around the belief, and you have no proofs or "sides" for it. Your repeating of your so called "argument" wouldn't help you a bit to make it more convincing. Beleive in what you want or invent - it is all in your mind, not in reality, but if it causes you to poysel other Yidden on that basis, no rhetoric will help you to justify it, since it is against the Toyro. It is you who lack the emunas chachomim, and substitute it for emunas hapetek.

As a missionary personality, it bothers you that you have no convincing arguments, that's why you go back and forth with your claims. But they remain claims and your own beliefs. They have nothing to do with Breslov in reality.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:47:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Rabbeinu said...

NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:48:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Reb Noson said...

NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:49:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Reb Yisrael Karduner said...

NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:50:00 PM EDT, Anonymous saba yisrael said...

NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 1:51:00 PM EDT, Anonymous true breslover said...

NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 2:12:00 PM EDT, Anonymous happy breslover said...

bahaltener and yosef, forget about it. your arguments are useless. in the time of rabbeinu you would not have been breslov. simple as that. you would have used your same arguments.

only 'chachamim' that oppose the petek are sheker because they base their claim on a shakran which i have already explained only made the claim himself long after the maaseh took place. at the time of the maaseh no one claimed to have written it.

not all breslover zekeinim opposed the petek. this is a great lie. you are a lier and shakran, simple as that. many breslovers believed saba as saba himself says. some accepted it. some opposed it. this means that someone must be wrong. since according to saba's account it is impossible that any human could have written it, that PROVES the breslovers that believe in saba are right, and the ones that base their claim on a shakran, wrong. it is very simple.

bahaltener. why do you ignore the main points. i stated that no one claimed to have written the petek at the time. only till later. thats 'tarti desatri'. a misnaged who makes up a story long after it took place to hide the nes of rabbeinu. and you believe him??? and any breslov 'manhig' that opposes saba only does it because he will lose his power and kavod if he is misbatel to saba. its as simple as that i'm afraid. power and kavod even affect breslover manhigim. beware of the false manhigim. dont be so naive as to think if someone is a breslover gadol he is emes.

and who was the clear voice in saba's head. the prankster???

yosef. a true breslover puts all his faith in one tsadik. Rabbeinu. that doesnt make everyone else sheker. it just means we must be very careful what we are mekabel from non-breslovers. but first and foremost we are misbatel to the tsadik. saba is the last tsadik ha'emes before moshiach as testified by Rabbeinu in the petek. we are misbatel to him. if he says anyone who opposes the petek is a shakran, then that is what we believe, plain and simple. there is no greater emunas chachamim than that.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 2:19:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Yoseph
you said
"Your emunas chachomim is limited to one person, and all other chachomim are "sheker" to you."

This above statement you made about us is true and not true, let me explain why. On one level, it is true for all Breslov that their faith should be only in one person, namely Rebbe Nachman. That which agrees with the Rebbe is true and that which does not agree with the Rebbe is not true. Rebbe Nachman is the final word for all the Torah. After that Reb Nussun. I'm with Reb Nussun, who agrees with him in his generation is right that which disagrees is wrong. We, the Na Nach, understand that Saba is the true tzadik of the Dor (under Rebbe Nachman of course) all that are against Saba and his message are holding back the Redemption. All those that join Saba are for the Redemption, all those in between are in between. This is the nature of the Tzadik to cause division. We have faith in Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, the Ben Ish Chai, Rabbi Shmuel Horowitz, Rabbi Yitzchach Brieter, the Chufetz Chaim, to name a few. We hold Saba to be the true manhig and so we must follow his ways, and whom he told us to separate from we must separate. To you this might sound strange. How is it that a Tzadik can cause separation? Is not holiness about unity and achdut? But you should know that there is no unity except under the rule of the True Tzadik (Rebbe Nachman) there is no love in the world except for the ones that gather around the tzadik to do his will and follow his ways, all other unity is an illusion all other friendship is laced with ulterior motives. For a leader, who might even be a truly G-d fearing person but is only a little bit flawed in their character, not only cannot help us to come to the true tzadik but actually harms us and leads us away from the true tzadik and from true unity and love.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 2:22:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Menatzpach said...

Saba-Noon: Why the Chofetz Chaim? Was he pro-Petek?

 
At September 17, 2008 at 2:59:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Saba noon - your views on emunas tzadikim are crooked. They contradict the Rebbe, they contradict Chazal, they contradict the Toyro. You are trying to escape the responsibility for your crooked views, claiming that they were perpetuated by R' Odesser. No, this will not do. You and those who are spreading them Rachmono letzlan, will be responsible for them.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 2:59:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Who is the Rebbe of Israel? Rebbe Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman. -Saba

 
At September 17, 2008 at 3:07:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Non-Am Ho-Aretz said...

KU KUK KUKU KUKUKAROO MI-UMAN!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 3:07:00 PM EDT, Anonymous happy and triumphant breslover said...

NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!
NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!
NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!
NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!
NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN!!!!!!!

forever and forever and forever!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 3:09:00 PM EDT, Anonymous mefursem shel sheker turkey said...

kukurichoooo!!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 3:12:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

bahaltener,

I's aint so edgumakated, You pardon my ignorance bout all dis stuff.
I might get some details wrong here and there, Least I knows who da Rebbe be.

Rebbe Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!

Yup! dat be da Rebbe! I don'ts know so much, I's admit it. But one thins fo Sure. i knows who da Rebbe be.

Rebbe Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!

Yup! Dats be the Rebbe. Na Nach!! yup. The Rebbe! Ain't no dout bout it. The Rebbe of the World.

Rebbe Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!

Yup!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 3:17:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"will be responsible for them."

I am responsible, are you threatening me???? are you asking me to stop writing here. What did you mean "be responsible"?

 
At September 17, 2008 at 3:20:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

manitzpach

I don't know the details about the Chuphetz Chaim and why he's in. It is a good question. We are currently compiling a list of Na Nach Shamot tzadikim and will publish it. Also Rebbe Shlomo Carleback makes it in. Na Nach is a lot of fun.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 4:01:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

What did you mean "be responsible"?

I'm not threatening you. I'm warning you - you'll be responsible for kilkul that comes out of such views. Responsible before the Bashefer.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 4:47:00 PM EDT, Anonymous happy na nach said...

bahaltener!!!!!! why do you continue??????? what is it you are trying to prove????????? you'll never dissuade a na nach from the truth and true light of Rabbeinu, so why do u even try. go home. you have nothing more to say. na nachs sing and dance and you moan. we have fulfilled our hishtadlus in being merachem on you and explaining to you very clearly the truth of saba and the petek, but your heart is closed. so there is nothing more we can do for you.

yosef is a bit more open than you but he relies too much on his chochma so is therefore confused.

may Rabbeinu have mercu on you all to bring you to his true talmid and true light.

hatslacha raba.

Na Nach Nachma Nachman me'uman.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 4:50:00 PM EDT, Anonymous mefursem shel sheker said...

aaaaauuuurrrgggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!1

 
At September 17, 2008 at 5:32:00 PM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Even if one were to believe that the petek were from heaven, it said nothing about a new tzaddik ha-emes. Either Rabbi Odesser said this about himself, after the fact, or his followers came up with it. The whole inyan of Breslov chassidus is that Rabbi Nachman is and always will be the Rebbe. Manhigim are needed because they have a mesorah, and most of them form a direct chain back to the Rebbe. A manhig in Breslov is not a new Rebbe, just an advanced student who can teach others.
The NaNach belief system totally uproots this staple of Breslov Chassidus. You're arranging a kibbutz now at Rabbi Odesser's tzion? Where did that come from? You're contradicting the explicit wishes of Rabbi Nachman. You might not even realize that you're doing this, but without living manhigim who are connected to the mesorah of the Rebbe, you don't know your feet from your head. And no, another book written by another niftar tzaddik doesn't help with this. A person needs guidance from a living teacher. This was ironically most clearly at the beginning of this discussion, when one of the early commenters mentioned the critical importance, in all of Judaism, of having OBJECTIVITY. Without that, you can yell about the petek all day long, but good luck raising your children. The Rebbe constantly refers to the power of a person's dimyon- the capacity of evil imagination, of self-deception.

And that which you said about putting absolute faith in Rabbi Nachman- having faith in Rabbi Nachman is also to have faith in his teachings, and especially his believe in Klal Yisrael. The Rebbe sought out the good even in those who opposed him. He even went so far as to say, "those who oppose me are right to do so. For if I actually was what they think I am, it would be right to oppose me".
Let's contrast that for a second with everything you've written here.
The Rebbe also praised many other tzaddikim, regardless of what "group" they belonged to. He certainly encouraged his followers to learn Torah from many of them as well. Breslov is not a close-minded, rigid box Chas v'shalom. The Rebbe's wisdom is largely "mochin d'gadlus" type of ideas. When people try to make shtick out of it, there are kilkulim.
Furthermore, none of your "proofs" are proofs at all. Most aren't logical at all. The issues are the serious hashkafic problems that have already been expressed on this thread repeatedly. No one has responded to them adequately. The petek would be a non-issue if there wasn't such a shocking level of hefkerus surrounding it, and being attributed to it's influence. And indeed, that hefkerus does push reasonable people away from Breslov. You may still attract people who don't care, but you will lose most of the serious people.
When it comes to actual actions, I can think of far worse things people could be doing than dancing on vans, which is often cited negatively. I disagree with this. Chazal just that 2 jesters in a market merited the world to come, just for making people happy. I am glad that there addresses where people who feel marginalized from mainstream Judaism can find a place to sincerely relate to G-d. I appreciate that the Keren has increased the availability of the sefarim.
But just try and think, "what if", the petek wasn't really the issue at the end of the day? But rather, yiras shamayim is the issue? If righteousness is the issue? If keeping halacha and the mitzvos in pashtus, learning with koach, hisbodedus, and gemilus chasadim are the main things? Rabbi Nachman's whole goal was at the end of the day, to just renew pathways for us to regain sincerity and simplicity in Yiddishkeit. There are no magic words or tricks that the redemption is waiting upon. Tikun haMidos, Torah learning and tefilla remain the foundations upon which everything rests.
The strong impression is that the NaNach movement is moving things away from that basic center and common ground between all Jews. Rabbi Nachman came to revitalize them, not to make a cult chas v'shalom.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:09:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have no idea what Na Nach is. It is your zchut to oppose us. If I thought the way you did I (heaven Forfend) would also oppose Na Nach. Anyway Your opposition fuels us. Your twisting Rebainu. The Petek is True, the Baal Hapetek is true. Na Nach is the song of Redemption. Your children will become Na Nach, And there is nothing you can do to stop us. You or your Meforsamim shel sheker with all their honor and money. Rebainu warned us about people like you. Have a nice flight!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:15:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

First I would like to thank happy, sincere, concerned, and all types of Breslovers who contributed to the comments, - and special thanks to the comments from Rabbi Nachman, Rabbi Nussun, Rabbi Yisroel Karduner, and Rabbi Yisroel Dov Odesser, they brought me alot, a great deal in fact, of Simcha, I'm sitting here gigling and people around me are looking at each other wanting to know what's going on - It's NANACH!
About the claim that only the Nanach are printing the Rebbe's sforim - there is a great deal of truth about this. Till very recently, for 2 years, Meshech Hanachal was put out of business because of some tricky business they pulled with one of our Nanach friends MB. Shick MHNB"O concentrates on his own stuff, although occasionaly he puts out one of the Rebbe's, the truth is that I do think that if no one else would he would, but as the facts stand now - he is not. There are people putting out there own stuff in English. Take for example CK english LM which was completely transalated I think 7 or maybe even 15 years ago, but CK has to add his commentary so he never published more than a volume every 2 years or so. Now there's also Toras Hanetzach but they don't even have an address and I couldn't find out how to get a hold of them, I'm told their out of business but I'm not sure. There is Weinstock who does print Rabbainu's sforim - kind of sporadic, but he does it. So overall the main constant serious publishers of Rabbainu's sforim, and the ones that are seeing to it the sforim are sold and distributed everywhere, are the Nanach! (here is a good place to applaud the beautiful sforim of Nikudos Tovos - a Nanach in Bait Shemesh).
Now about accepting Nanach - here's a new way to understand why Nanach reject those who don't respect Nanach . Our sages taught that everyday a person's evil inclination tries to overcome him, and if not for G-dly intervention the person would succumb. This means that anyone who is seriously trying to serve G-d is suffering tremendously from the evil inclination, and will be constantly searching for the truth. He would not laught or reject something that could really help him - even as a drowning man does not contemplate what is being extended to him to save him - he grabs it! So to a real and true person, upon hearing about the Saba and the Petek will grab on to it!!!! Eitz Chaim He Lamachazikim Bu! Now if after that he had issues, then there would be something to talk about, but just to hear people, sitting in the comfort of their home - on the internet - expressing their 'chuchmos' - while the Nanach steal time from their Hafatza, hisbodudus, and learning to try to help those lost souls - it's just preposturous!
So if you want to be a little considerate and fair at least say Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman one time - it will make a world of difference!
NNNNM!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:17:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

Special thanks also for the contributions from Meforsam Shel Sheker, don't know if there ever was anyone with such a title that made me so happy!
keep up the good work!
Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:26:00 PM EDT, Anonymous striving breslover said...

yosef. you are speaking sense. which is good. you are sincere and you make some very good points. you are a truthful person no doubt and you will find truth in the end.

saba said he is the rebbi of the world. rebbi being the roshei teivos of 'rosh bnei yisrael'. rabbeinu also said this.

why do you believe rebbi nachman when he syas this, but not saba. after all saba did receive a petek from rabbeinu which definately atleast shows rabbeinu held saba in high regards and trusted him.

if rabbeinu gives his personal haskoma to saba, isnt saba someone we can completely rely upon when he says he is rosh bnei yisrael?

of course saba will always be the talmid of rabbeinu, but in every dor there is a rosh bnei yisrael. moshiach himself is rosh bnei yisrael and a talmid of rabbeinu. torah 123 says we must connect ourselves to the tsadik of the dor. that means in every generation there is one tsadik who we must follow.

rabbeinu says in order to get to him we must find his talmidim. we need the tsadik of the generation in order to come close to rabbeinu.

being connected to the tsadik is the ultimate thing. these are things which cannot be spoken about. only experienced. Rabbeinu is a great chiddush to the world. he said this himself. yiddishkeit was never so centered around the tsadik like it is with Rabbeinu.

when you are connected to the tsadik you are connected to his kedusha. if you were to live a thousand years in complete holiness you still wouldnt reach the level of simply connecting yourself to the tsadik. Rabbeinu is a peleh. his derech is the old derech but still a completely new one. Rabbeinu reached levels and places no one has ever reached. not even Moshe rabbeinu. Rabbeinu says i can bring you to where i am. just have simple faith in me, listen to my words and apply them.

but to get to Rabbeinu we must connect ourselves with his talmidim. but not just any of his talmidim. the ones that reached shleimus like Rabbeinu did. Saba says he is the one we need to follow in order to connect with Rabbeinu. the petek confirms this. (pages can be written about the secrets of the petek which show this).

yosef. you have a choice. you have breslovers who say, you dont need saba, the petek never happened, the petek happened but is not important. follow us. dont be associated with na nach.

saba says. follow me. i am the tsadik of the generation. only through me will you reach Rabbeinu's hidden light. only through me will you reach shleimus. dont follow the other breslov manhigim. at best they have not reached shleimus. at worst they are after kesef and kavod.

no one can prove anything to you. the choice is in front of you. just like any yid who is not yet breslov and has to choose between what Rabbeinu says and what all todays gedolim say.

you have to find the truth yourself.
there is only one known way. through great tefila and crying out to Hashem to lead you only to truth and the true tsadik. you will never find truth through chakiras alone. you need to find it through pure faith. you need to find it through hisbodedus. alone. with no outside influence. you need to be moser nefesh. you need to have great courage. you need what it takes to be a true breslover.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:28:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

to yoseph

that was the most boring thing I ever had to read. thanks for torturing me by making me read that. I think I just got excused from gehenum.

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:36:00 PM EDT, Anonymous mefursem shel sheker said...

buuuurrrrrrrp!!!!!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:38:00 PM EDT, Anonymous an overly eager talmid said...

hey. did you just say some toyra???

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:39:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

bahaltener:

Have you accepted Rebbe Nachman as your personal saviour? You must search your heart and find Rebbe Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman! and then you will be Saved!

Halleluka! : )

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:40:00 PM EDT, Anonymous whatever said...

lets all just go home and dance...

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:42:00 PM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

yawn... i want some cookies.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:44:00 PM EDT, Anonymous YGUYNY said...

"So to a real and true person, upon hearing about the Saba and the Petek will grab on to it!!!! Eitz Chaim He Lamachazikim Bu!"

What!?! Eitz chaim hi lemachazikm bo refers to the Torah - whether you are a litvak, a chosid, or whatever, this posuk applies if you are learning torah. It is a gross perversion to imply that the "eitz chaim" referred to is the petek. It is talk like that that makes people think you're starting a new religion.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:48:00 PM EDT, Anonymous YGUYNY said...

"Have you accepted Rebbe Nachman as your personal saviour? You must search your heart and find Rebbe Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman! and then you will be Saved!"

That, my friend is Xtian talk. You sound like every other notzri. By "accepting Rabbi Nachman" one is not saved. By applying the rebbe's eitzot, learning torah, working on oneself constantly, and just grinding away at the yeshus of ones self, then one will become a tzaddik - nevertheless, you will still get onesh for your avairos and schar for your mitzvos. The Rebbe promised to be a melitz for those who come to him on rosh ha-shannna; but still, in the end all and be all, it is up to you. The idea of merely "accepting" someone and thereby getting salvation is 100% xtian. This is not how Judaism and, especially Breslov, works.

More proof of a new relgion.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:56:00 PM EDT, Anonymous whatever said...

yosef. until recently breslov was the ultimate cult. it was totally laughed and looked down upon like na nach is today. you will never be masig what Rabbeinu is all about as you try to understand everything with your sechel. everything has to make sense to your logic first. then you will accept. Rabbeinu makes sense to you, so you follow him. if it didn't, you wouldnt. this isnt emuna. emuna is finding the tsadik through tefila then being misbatel to him even (davka) when it makes no sense. only when you are mevetal your sechel can you be mekushar to the tsadik. (torah 123).

 
At September 17, 2008 at 6:58:00 PM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

yguyny. get a life.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:00:00 PM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

this mefursem shel sheker looks tasty... belch...boilk...burp...
ahhhh! that was tasty! :)))

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:26:00 PM EDT, Blogger NaaNaach said...

never knew that the cookie monster was a Nanach!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:28:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Na Nach is a new religion...It's called Judaism.

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:31:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

shall we add the cookie monster to our new Na Nach Shamos Tzadikim?

 
At September 17, 2008 at 7:33:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Uman is gonna fall!!!

 
At September 17, 2008 at 11:39:00 PM EDT, Anonymous Antimissionary said...

Na Nach is a new religion...
Yeah, called from now on - Nanachism. It proclaims a new savior whom one has to accept to be saved. Very "Jewish" idea of course, with obvious christian taste. So, representatives of Nanachism here are proclaiming to hunt down Jewish children and to "capture" everyone.

So, are you saying basically, that missionaries and sectarians like you should be stopped, and Yad Leachim should monitor your hunt for Jewish souls, like they monitor many other missionaries and sects?

 
At September 18, 2008 at 5:51:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

antimissionary

Rebbe Nachman said. In the future everyone will be Breslov.

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!!

 
At September 18, 2008 at 6:14:00 AM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

i'm not na nach. i just like mefursamim shel sheker. they're TASTY!!!!!!!

 
At September 18, 2008 at 6:22:00 AM EDT, Anonymous anti antimissionary said...

errrr... sre you saying Rabbeinu is a missionary??? he says in the future evryone MUST be breslov. Rabbeinu says without him you cant receive your tikkun and therefore cant get into olam haba (paradise). sounds pretty missionary to me.

you're confused. bringing people to the light of the true tsadik does not make you xtian. i dont know how you came to that conclusion. just because xtians do something similiar doesnt make the truth sheker.

if xtians start wearing tsitsis, does that make us xtian if we do?? of course not.

wake up and start using your sechel a bit.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 6:26:00 AM EDT, Anonymous king kong said...

hey cookie monster. have you ever tried a misnaged? they're pretty tasty too.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 6:31:00 AM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

there's this guy bahaltener. he sounds really tasty.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 6:32:00 AM EDT, Anonymous king kong said...

sorry. i already had him for breakfast.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 6:38:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

In the future only Breslov. Rebbe Nachman is Moshe Rebainu. Rebbe Nachman is Avraham, Yitzchach, and Yaakov. Moshiach will accept the Petek!! You say no. you say Rebbe Nachman is a nice guy, a tzadik..but the tzadik? Yes, Rebbe Nachman and his teachings, his Daas, his ways are the only true way. There is no other real Judaism. yes, that's what we are saying. Rac Na Nach!!!

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!!!

 
At September 18, 2008 at 7:14:00 AM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

hey saba-noon. who's na nach nachma nachman meuman. thats sounds tasty!!!!!!!

 
At September 18, 2008 at 7:44:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman is the root of all creation,
Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman
the root of the Torah
Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman
the song of Redemption
Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman
is the song of Redemption

I read this in a book

 
At September 18, 2008 at 9:15:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"So, representatives of Nanachism here are proclaiming to hunt down Jewish children and to "capture" everyone."

Not "hunt down" draw them in. and not just jewish children, everyone, even the goyim will chant Na Nach. and not just the goyim but the clouds, the wind, the trees and grasses, and animals. everything, everywhere, all the time only Na Nach and forever. We are are not trying to convince you, just informing, so you won't be so shocked by the soon and upcoming redemption. and Yes you should monitor us. monitor our lives, check out what we are doing. It's interesting. Look at our website and investigate our dogma and ideaology and our "missionary" tackticks. You could learn a lot. oh, and especially the Petek. check out the Petek. It is what we believe to be the Rebbe's game plan of the Final Redemption. We have experts studying the Petek day and night and gathering information about it. Yes, we also have people saying Tehillim, Printing books of Rebbe nachman, distributing the books. Some Na Nach's don't wear Na Nach kippah's and they are in the Yeshivah's learning gemorah but secretly they have a Na Nach kemaiah hidden in their hats. and they chant Na Nach when you don't see or hear. We Na Nach's already mingle amongst you all. Some young some old. This is the Final Redemption. The Final redemption is solely based on the printing and the distributing of the Books and teachings of Rebbe Nachman. Every house in the world will be filled with the books of Rebbe Nachman. Everyone will be reading them. Everyone will be dancing Na Nach. Everyone and everything. I would think that you would be thankful that a Na Nach would be informing you of all our secrets.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 11:59:00 AM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"You're contradicting the explicit wishes of Rabbi Nachman."

Just to get the facts straight.
Rebbe Nachman never said be in "UMAN" for Rosh Hashana. It was Reb Nussun

 
At September 18, 2008 at 12:01:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Saba noon - refuo shleymo for your mind.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 12:07:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"but good luck raising your children."

See this is the difference between us. Na Nach does not believe in "luck" of any sort. Just faith in Rebbe Nachman's teachings.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 12:46:00 PM EDT, Blogger saba-noon said...

"refuo shleymo for your mind."

ditto

 
At September 18, 2008 at 1:05:00 PM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

hey bahaltener. i thought you were eaten for breakfast?

 
At September 18, 2008 at 1:51:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

cookie monster: Missionaries choke on me. Beware ;)

 
At September 18, 2008 at 5:27:00 PM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster said...

since when is king kong a missionary!!??? you seem a very confused person.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 5:37:00 PM EDT, OpenID bahaltener said...

Cookie: Come on. Stop pretending. There is a whole gang of missionaries here. I have an acute sense for them. Their behavioral patterns are pretty standard for that kind of folk.

 
At September 18, 2008 at 5:42:00 PM EDT, Anonymous concerned na nach said...

are you really taking the cookie monster seriously!!!!????????? have you gone nuts?????????

 
At September 19, 2008 at 5:26:00 AM EDT, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Saba Moon:Hello again. Sorry I couldn't get back to you earlier. I disagree with your assertion that everything is black or white with no in between. Can you explain the intricacies of halacha to a child? Or the deep Torah of chassidus? The answer is certainly not.
However I guess you didn't notice that I did explain in a way a child would understand.
No one said\ related seriously to the petek. Not when it was supposedly secret (although the Sabah certainly tried to promulgate it at every opportunity...) Rav Shmuel Horowitz Never said it. He NEVER told anyone to say it even in private. No Breslover followed the Petek. I believe the Sabbah's own children do (correct me if I am wrong.) because he told them they should. NO one else in Breslov did\ does this (except talmidim of the Sabbah.) Or in any other group for that matter. The haskamah to print Rebbe Nachman's seforim need not denigrate the Sabbah in order to not be disagree with the veracity\ importance of the petek. Rav Moshe can respect the sabbah and respect the importance of the Petek to HIM Personally and those who follow his path. Yet he may also not go with it or feel it has any GENERAL importance for anyone else.
I repeat again: I am not out to crusade against the petek.
For you it is a matter of emunah and you can rely on the Sabbah (who argued on everyone else.)
But why denigrate others? Why pretend that everyone great in and out of breslov doesn't ignore the petek? Why not acknowledge that everyone else felt it was largely insignificant? (To the Sabbah and yourself it is may be essential; that doesn't mean that it is essential in anyone else's avodah.If it was at least their children talmidim would have heard of it some time.)
Rebbe Nachman said a lot of VERY significant things in his beautiful works which we all agree with.
Very sadly, people's attitude that the petek replaces Azamra for importance is what often pushes more souls AWAY from the awesome Torah of Rebbe Nachman then anything else.(I have heard this from many who think that the petek represents all of Breslov more times than I can mention. Nebach nebach.) Hashem should atone for it. If people had a balanced attitude about the Petek and understood that it may not be for everyone everywhere, people would be able to hear the powerful and efficacious advice of Rebbe Nachman and use it to draw near to Hashem. Surely we still need Rebbe Nachma's other works according to us all.
To summarize: I would say to a child that we know the halacha(=what to do) by what great people DO not what they one time said or even wrote...The Sabbah incessantly said to say the Petek and did so himself; everyone else did not.(You cannot come up with one Breslov name from before or after...And if you have ONE name; so what? But again Rav Shmuel HOrowitz NEVER even told his children to say the petek ever. He told other secrets to students that I know of and would have got people upset because he believed it was to truth. But not the Petek)
Remember; I am not against the petek per say. I am against people obligating EVERYONE to say it and claiming those who don't are (fill in the blank with anything even heretic) Hashem should atone for this blatant lack of respect and balanced perspective.
There is a lot to Breslov besides the Petek. If we only focused on that it would stop pushing people away from Rabeinu...AZAMRA etc etc.
**very short summary: Most don't say the petek because most greats don't and did not. We do because we rely on the sabah. Eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim Chaim--My kids understand this; why can't yours?.**
GEMARA IN BRESLOV: In conclusion I would like to reject an appalling statement made above. I cannot claim to have read all the comments but one stuck in my mind. The person claimed that Breslov only required Gemara from those who are already tzaddikim.
This could not be further from the truth. Although Rebbe Nachman said that even if one is not a lamdan he can be a tzaddik and if one can't learn gemara he should do what he can etc etc that is a far cry from making an opinion that even one who can should not learn gemara.
This perversion of Rebbe Nachman's words show a marked ignorance of what Rav Nosson wrote and Breslov history (at least.) I quote from Alim Leturufah, Rav Nosson's letters #174: Rav Nosson writes a general letter to the Breslover Chasidim:"...In addition here there was an opponent whose son began to draw a little near to anshei shlomeinu and began to learn a lot of gemara and poskim. The cursed misnagdim forcibly prevented him from learning gemara and poskim claiming he is better off speaking to them.
His father actually shouted at him: "I am only giving you food on condition that you learn no more than one daf gemara a day. Whoever learns more is a breslover..."
What would Rav Nosson have said about the ultimate misnagdim who did not allow gemara except to a tzaddik? But wait a minute Jews never ever were at a point where they made a shittah not to learn gemara...The Rambam is a ridiculous proof. He only meant to START with the Yad even before gemara to know what to do. Instead of the masses learning gemara and not knowing what to do even the simplest person could learn the Yad and know what to do instead of a little gemara and not know. (there is VOLUMES of proof for this.)
There are many more proofs that breslovers always learned gemara (besides the exceptions mentioned below and were never against it. The misnagdim criticized breslovers for learning too much gemara!) There were people who had a hard time learning gemara and I can understand that for them it's too much or not yet the time. Some even did Avodah and did not learn gemara (I believe the Sabbah was one of these.) I can understand that too.(They were working on connection to Hashem all day and they felt that for them personally that is the way to do it. I don't say I think they were correct--who am I to judge-- only that I understand where they were coming from.) I do not understand someone claiming that only tzaddikim should learn gemara. That is ridiculous and can be proven not to be the opinion of breslov EVER.
Hashem should atone for such fallacies and bring us to truly love our fellow Jews by seeing the good. At least we should never accuse them of terrible things. Hashem should atone for our sinas chinam. Remeber: Azamra! Not only in those who agree with you. Also in those who see the world differently. (I know it's hard to explain to a child why and how people are drawn to focus different aspects of avodas Hashem as Rav Nosson writes, but hey: who said any truth must always be explainable to a child?)

 
At September 19, 2008 at 8:03:00 AM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster's best friend said...

to all those who are not yet na nach.

lets get this matter settled once and for all. na nach nachma nachman me'uman. understood??? no???? ok let me ellaborate.

azamra is Rabbeinu's most beautiful torah. dont mess it up. azamra does NOT make someone into a tsadik. it just finds even one good point among a trillion quadzillion bad ones. if this wreck of a person wants to become good, (because he has ONE nekuda tova) he is able to build on this great accomplishment of his and do teshuva.
all na nachs agree that everyone has a nekuda tova. even mefursamim shel sheker. (believe it or not). actually they have two. (would you believe it). a beard AND peyos. (big round of applause). thats more than most litvish roshei yeshivos. (although they may have others).

next point. Rabbeinu says we must have azus dekedusha against mefursamim shel sheker. we must name and SHAME them. berland arush and shik, all prime examples. (although arush isnt nearly quite as bad). what is their great misdeed. they oppose the tsadik of OUR generation, (trumpets) ba'al hapetek (horns) SABA YISRAEL. (great round of applause and celebration all round).
the shpole zeida and savraner were both great tsadikim but were considered zaken desitra achra (boooooooooooo). they opposed the true tsadik. (like korach and his henchmen, all great 'tsadikim' and chachamim). essentialy they were in it for themselves unlike the tsadik ha'emes who us TRULY moser nefesh for am yisrael. (dont get fooled by a beard and peyos coupled with chochma and fake dveikus).

next. (to be continued)

 
At September 19, 2008 at 8:09:00 AM EDT, Blogger Yosef said...

Anonymous: Thank for summarizing so articulately what are also my own feeling in this "debate". I hope we can all agree on what you wrote.

 
At September 19, 2008 at 8:24:00 AM EDT, Anonymous the cookie monster's best friend said...

continued....
no main breslover became na nach. a) no great tsadik in rabbeinu's or reb noson's time became breslov (do you people ever think?????) b) saba never revealed the true chiddush of na nach only until recently.

(cookie monster) "which is?".
fair question. you are truly open minded and truth seeking. which is that SABA is the true talmid of Rabbeinu and ROSH BNEI YISRAEL of our generation until Moshiach reveals himself.

(cookie monster) "wooooooow".
yes, isnt that great.
(cookie monster) "er, erm, hmm, excuse me for asking but who says we must believe saba as opposed to the ones that er oppose him?"

another great question. shows you're more than just interested in cookies. this is really the ultimate question which is the basis to the whole machlokes here. who do you believe. thats what it boils down to. nothing else.

so to all not yet na nachs. essentially there is nothing to argue about. do you believe saba or not. saba says he is the tsadik hador. saba says he received a petek from Rabbeinu. he even met with him in his dreams. saba says there are more important things to do in THIS generation than learn gemora. saba says only through believing and saying na nach nachma nachman me'uman will you be zoche to geulah.

(cookie monster) "er, so what do i do now".

 

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